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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:25 pm 
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Can we make them blue? I like blue birds.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:49 am 
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LilyStorm wrote:
Emotion gives insight so you draw cards. Either way the color pie should be more mechanical than flavor based like it is now. Which imo is part of why it feels unbalanced at times

You can balance the color pie using only effects that can be justified with flavor.
That is the only way you should balance it.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:58 am 
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razorborne wrote:
Phoenixes are white now, deal with it

:duel:

Only white would call them Gargoyles.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:38 pm 
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LilyStorm wrote:
Emotion gives insight so you draw cards. Either way the color pie should be more mechanical than flavor based like it is now. Which imo is part of why it feels unbalanced at times

You can balance the color pie using only effects that can be justified with flavor.
That is the only way you should balance it.


Anything can be justified with any flavor though. Make it balanced mechanically first then add flavor over it. Then if anythinv doesnt quite fit you can tweak things a bit.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:23 am 
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I would move tapping things from white into red.

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Last edited by ParadOxymoron on Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:25 am 
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I would move tapping things from white into red.

Why?

Oh, now that this is back at the top, I thought of something: black fight. Fight kills creatures. Black kills creatures. Black fight.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:33 am 
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I would move tapping things from white into red.

Why?

red captures the flavor of an arrogant monarch better than Imposing Sovereign does. plus it makes sense, as red likes it when you're exhausted. mechanically, it means you can't block or activate your abilities, and preventing creatures from blocking is already red's thing.

also just from a practical standpoint, white needs the most trimming and red needs the most expanding in terms of pie slice size

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:00 am 
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Lets replace it with a color cake.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:04 am 
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Removal


Creatures


Other

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:22 am 
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I intend to do the same with six.

Yeah, same. I'm not sure how I would tackle ideology. I could make them on-dimensional and contrast them with the color opposite of it, or make them two-dimensional and contrast each of their points with the color two steps away, and then make the opposite one the rival in some fashion, as it would be influenced by both.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:51 am 
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Oh, another thing for black: more discard as drawback. Black has the most creatures/spells with drawbacks, and has the most discard, but for some reason discard as a drawback is usually BLUE.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:00 pm 
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Discard in blue isn't really used as a drawback as much as a way to make draw spells into filtering spells instead.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:03 am 
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Things I would do / consider:

Give red mana fixing:
Quote:
"Mana Painter"
Creature - Human (C)
, : Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
1/1
Quote:
Spark of Inspiration
Instant (C)
Add three mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool.


Red could also have
R Sorcery Return target untapped creature (an opponent controls) to its owner's hand.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/comm ... comment=13

Also, red could have stuff that discards cards at random such as colorshifted Specter's Wail or
Quote:
Discord of Melkor
Sorcery (R)
Each player discards two cards at random.
Many that sang the Great Music before the dawn of Time nigh Melkor grew despondent and their thought was disturbed. Their music faltered and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound.

Moving blue from straight-up drawing to stuff like Intuition and Dig Through Time
Also, perhaps
Quote:
Subliminal Suggestion
Sorcery (U)
Look at target player's hand. You may choose a nonland card from it. If you do, that player reveals the chosen card, puts it on the bottom of his or her library, then draws a card.


Also stuff like Mind Control would perhaps be shifted into combination specifically though neither alone specifically, but still black could have
Quote:
Enslave
Enchantment - Aura (U)
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature has base power and toughness 1/1 with no abilities.

Actually stay away from shuffling so tutors could be like "look top ten, put one hand, rest on bottom at random order"

Give green small fliers ie. insects and birds
It would have flying stuff with 1 or less power, 2 rarely
Others colors would still have their big flying iconics
Green could create clones of its own stuff and blue can clone opponents stuff only.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/comm ... -green#c22

I would remove hexproof and try to replace it with "Stealth" (As long as this is untapped, it can't be targeted by your opponents.) which would be primary in blue/black and secondary in green.
I would increase occurances of both haste and vigilance in green creatures.

Remove artifact removal from white and maybe lessen its creature removal and use preferable something like tucking instead.
White would have Disentomb.
Also I would increase number of counterspells in white, but perhaps more something that is forecast beforehand (an enchantment for example)
Perhaps countering triggered abilities at lower rarities in white too.
Quote:
Seal of Disapproval
Enchantment (U)
, Sacrifice ~: Counter target spell unless its controller pays .
I'm not sure whether to have that activation cost or not.

Quote:
Abide in Waiting
Sorcery (C)
Put target creature on the battlefield or creature card in a graveyard into its owner’s library second from the top.
There he lay upon his face before the feet of Manwë and sued for pardon; but his prayer was denied, and he was cast into prison in the fastness of Mandos, whence none can escape, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man.


Quote:
Confession
Instant (C)
Target player exiles three cards from his or her hand until your next turn. (The cards are revealed as they are exiled. They return to their owner's hand.)


Black reanimation should always be restricted with CMC limit, even when that limit is something like 5+

Oh yeah, and perhaps stuff like
Quote:
"False Life"
Enchantment (U)
When ~ ETBs you gain 10 life.
When ~ leaves the battlefield, you lose 13 life.

or Delusion N (When this enters you gain N life until it leaves the battlefield.)

"Fall Guy"
Instant (U)
Until end of turn, target creature you control gains “All damage that would be dealt to you is dealt to this creature instead.”

There's probably lot else, but I can't remember them off the top of my head.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:05 pm 
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I see I'd already mentioned black fight.
Red deathtouch.
Menace either tertiary in green (to replace landwalk) or white (to mirror "can block an additional creature")

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:48 pm 
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I think that
1) Color pie should be more flexible in "what effects cards of some color can do"
2) Color pie should be more rigid in "what effect on the game cards of some color can exert"
3) Flaws of colors should be defined better.
4) There should be a united curve for most effects in most colors. (What I mean is that green shouldn't get super efficient creatures JUST because it is green, and blue shouldn't get free card advantage JUST because it is blue and so on. Green should get lots of big creatures, but with justification why they are big, and blue should get card advantage, but with a sufficient cost, and green card advantage should be just as efficient as blue, and blue big creatures - as effective as green... except blue shouldn't really get reliable big creatures, but more on that later. And that should hold for all effects.)

Colors, individually:

WHITE:
Flaw: White should have the weakest lategame. Yes, weaker than red. Card advantage should be restricted to mass destruction, token generation, enchantment reanimation and scry. Mono white cantrips shouldn't give card advantage, cards like "do the usual trick, but twice" (like destroy two target tapped creatures) should be exceedingly rare and/or ineffective or overly defensive or give no card advantage. Finishers should be defensively orientated, and not FOR FREE, but for being not that effective in attacking. (I mean, Gisela the Broken is awful ! Archangel Avacyn is awful ! Angel of Invention - aaaaawful !). NO Sram effects, NO, just NO !
Strength 1: Early game domination. 2/1, Exile target creature - it's controller gains a cookie (but a big cookie), 3/1, 2/2 First Strike + All your creatures gain +1/+1 forever, and so on. White would be a master of first 4 turns of the game, rivaled by, but not really surpassed by Red.
Strength 2: Defense. The reason why you play white in control. (Aside from mass destruction.) Lifegain, walls, vigilant creatures, toughness bonuses, Multiblocking, prison, you name it. Should be more efficient right now, but NOT connected to card advantage.

BLUE:
Flaw: Blue should have slowest or most unreliable treats. Yes, no cheesy AND big sphinxes ! I would make most sphinxes, like, 2/4, 2/5, or 3/3. No Goliath Sphinx. Huge sea monsters would start at 8 mana, and STILL have attack 4-6. Illusory Dragon is OK, as is stuff like 7/7 This creature can't attack unless you've casted an instant spell this turn. Cheap aggressive flyers/unblockables are OK as long as their power is 3 or less. Aggressive small non-flyers are OK, even. But not big treats.
Strength 1: Counterspells. Should not be more cost/effective than any other category of answers, tho.
Strength 2: Card advantage. Not for nothing (Thassa's Bident, most iterations of Jace, Control Magic (cheap one).), but abundant. And not just card draw, but everything from card selection to stealing to forcing bad trades to doing 2-3 things with one spell to occasional tutors (a glaring hole in color pie - blue tutors.)

BLACK:
Flaw: General unreliability. Tricky one, but WotC generally do it well. Basically, nearly every black card should require some sort of resource or have some sort of drawback, except for 1) Ultimate removals and 2) Basic, non-bomb, non-utility creatures. Even spells specifically designed to fight unreliability (tutors) should be unreliable (take a full turn or have some typical black drawback.) NO to black things that are good just because, like Kaleitas or Obliterator or Dread Wanderer. Also, no to cheap, drawbackless black removal (Fatal Push or Disfigure or Dead Weight, but Ulcerate or Vendetta is OK.)
Strength 1: Easy transformation of resources. Not too efficient, but swift and/or massive. (Generally, you still should lose more than gain.)
Strength 2: Ultimate removal. Should really start at 3, unless with a serious (more than "nonblack") drawback. MURDER IS COMMON, DANGIT !!! Still, red removal should rival it, and beat it in the early game.

RED:
Flaw: Weak defense. For both individual creatures, and, especially, the player. Walls should be rare. Removal and utility - aggressively minded. No Circle of Flame. No Fireblade Angel. WotC does it good.
Strength 1: Aggression. Again, not because more effective then others, but because there is more of it, synergy for it, and because other colors don't get straight burn often. No Swiftspears or Abbots of Keral Keep.
Strength 2: Cheap removal. Shock is love, Shock is life. Be better than black removal in the early game, and still good later because later you can cast cheap removal PLUS something else.

Green:
Flaw: Need to be strongest. Only forms or removal are FAIR fights (No to Rabid Bite), deathtouch, pump spells, and Flash - forms that rely on creature superiority. Okay, okay, there are also Plummets and killing artifact creatures/enchantment creatures with Naturalizes, but those are more like hate cards, and less like removal. Also, no evasion except Trample.
Strength 1: Bombs. Green should be the best color if you want to turn the game upside-down. I am talking not just about huge creatures, but also about Overrun/Collective Unconscious effects, create-a-BUNCH-of-tokens effects, and generally massive effects. I repeat, they should be costed appropriately, by the same measure as cards in other colors, but there should be more of them, and more support for them. Speaking of which -
Strength 2: Resource generation. Unlike Black quickly trading one resource for another, green gets them over time, but way more efficiently. I am FOR 1-drop mana dorks, but they should be very drawbackful, like 0/1 : add to your mana pool. Then there is life gain, graveyard filling, card drawing (I am for Harmonize, but with some tweak.), creature growing, and so on.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:16 am 
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Wow, it seems like I wasted a lot of time just to be ignored.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:04 am 
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@purplebackpack89:
Spoiler


@UselessCommon:
Spoiler


EDIT: Added spoilers

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:24 am 
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I absolutely agree with you, mythics are the worst !
I even take this further - "pushing" is the worst ! (See fourth general suggestion in my post.)
I, of course, think that "development" principles are three times more important than "color pie", and color pie could easily be less rigid ! I mean, I am not against stuff like Counter target spell with CMC 2 or 3/3 This creature attacks each turn if able... As long as they fit into the strengths and weaknesses of their new colors, and fit into flavor.

What MTG seems missing is clear defenition of weaknesses of colors. They are extremely vague, especially with white "White is rigid (what?) and puts no value into an individual (what?)". No wonder white is OP so often. And some other colors gain lots of weaknesses - "Red is short sighted (very bad at card advantage... but has high cost "I win" dragons, duh), is a spell color (often, it's creatures are below average, while good spells are, actually, rare, because of "LD is unfun, burn spells are dangerous, spells in general should be worse than creatures" paradigm), and is straightforward (no enchantment removal, no small flyers, no quirky stuff just kidding, red gets it now."

About blue:
First things first: Delver is too good.
Blue, IMO, can and should get:
1) Aggressive small evasive creatures like Welkin Tern or Phantom Warrior.
2) Small/medium aggressive creatures with drawbacks like Illusory Bear or 5/3 This creature doesn't untap during your untap step.
3) Evasive bombs with awesome support abilities BUT low power.
4) Creatures with high power or average power + evasion BUT with drawbacks like "illusory" or what my card had (Baseline for a 3CC is 6/6, (more on that later) then you are forced to cast an instant during a first main phase to attack, then you are forced to cast a specific type of card each turn to attack - honestly, this is a drawback big enough to justify 8/8 for 3CC.)
5) Tutors, but rarely (once per ~2 sets, normally.), and with some twists to differentiate from black.
What blue shouldn't get (but gets now) is stuff like Curator of Mysteries or Glyph Keeper: Evasion + power equal to CMC + awesome support abilities with no drawback ??? Or stuff like Goliath Sphinx - even if it is fairly costed.

Green should stop getting creatures that are better than average without any drawback. And, it should get more resource production, especially card draw, self-milling, and mana dorks.

Also, I don't like when pump spells/+1+1 counters/auras are stapled to fight spells. This doesn't feel fair either.

Also, about baselines:
Statistically, if a player plays a deck with 24 lands, and doesn't mulligan, he will, on average, drop 4 lands consequently during the first 4 turns, and then have a 40% chance to get a land each turn after. This means that the gaps between 4-drops, 5-drops, 6-drops and so on are much bigger then gaps between 1-drops, 2-drops, 3-drops, and 4-drops.
That's why I use a following baseline curve:
1 2/1
2 2/2 tiny upside
3 3/3
4 4/4 tiny upside
5 6/6
6 8/7
7 9/9

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:08 am 
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Tahazzar wrote:

Red deathtouch.
Why? It's pretty clearly established that main way that red kills creatures is through damage. This would be against that idea and also make red and black similar in yet another way which is something to be avoided.


How would you represent a creature made of molten lava?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:38 am 
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Dealing with the strong:

White: ban card draw. With it, the color's overpowered as-is. If a combo deck needs something, Manipulate Fate and gold tokens, the latter justified through "taxing" the opponent. Both fascists and socialists would be using tax after all.
Black: it's able to do anything. It's also all justified, which is why I am balancing around this color.

Helping out the weak:

Red: It has too many aggressive tools. Trade some of those for board clear, card draw (even a cantrip for...) and artifact tokens that allow you to poke creatures for one damage or something. Also, Nodiatis's Flare Up.

Green: Ooh boy.
Spoiler

Blue: add in more aggressive, but fragile, threats. Also, add in defensive early game threats that can morph into late game tempo boosts. Remove early flying from blue, in favor of making mill more common. Late game flying can be less expensive. However, keep things like Illusory Angel and Incursion Specialist, if not proliferating them.


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