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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:37 am 
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I hate that the blue/red color combination doesn't have a suitable evergreen creature keyword. For starters, it really put a strain on my set structure. (9 keywords has been simultaneously cute and gross all at once.) Beyond that, it's just something Magic has wanted for a really long time. Blue and red are the spell colors, so it's not exactly a surprise, but it's still irksome when building around guilds or just designing blue/red combinations.

There's a lot of tricky features going on here. Let's look at them:
- The keyword probably doesn't want to be evasive. Blue already has flying and a horde of unblockable creatures; red already has intimidate and its own horde of unblockable creatures. You could keyword some sort of evasion that they've shared, but it really doesn't open things up that much.
- It wants to be relatively simple, of course.
- It can't use variables. That's not evergreen.
- Evergreen keywords tend to change the fundamentals of how things worked. Creatures tap to attack... unless they have vigilance. Creatures can't attack the turn they arrive... unless they have haste. The keyword we're looking for is likely to interact with something fundamental in the way creatures interact.
- It should be a static, non-stackable ability. This isn't a written rule, but all 15 of the current evergreen keyword abilities are static abilities. Lifelink and deathtouch at one time weren't, but they actively found a way to update this, which is some of the evidence I'm basing this claim on. So, no triggered or activated abilities.

Tough? You bet. WOTC and the collective YMTC world has been thinking about this for ages. Doesn't mean I want to stop!

I'm gonna do some research looking for the crossovers in blue and red mechanics and flavor. Until then, post your ideas.

Evergreen keywords (for reference)

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Last edited by Rush_Clasic on Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:47 am 
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I would shift the Rhox ability into UR, to be frank.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:54 am 
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The Rhox ability is pseudo-evasive, though, so that doesn't really address Rush's concern.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:55 am 
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Flash.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:58 am 
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Riorvard wrote:
I would shift the Rhox ability into UR, to be frank.

Could work. It's similar to unblockable but much more interactive. Green doesn't actually need it. Not bad. I'd like some flavor justification, but it actually seems like a great idea.

ty wrote:
The Rhox ability is pseudo-evasive, though, so that doesn't really address Rush's concern.

The real problem with evasion is the interaction quality. This still allows a lot of interaction, so I think it could work. The real question I have is whether or not it would look good being spread across a vast number of cards. And whether or not it plays well enough to be used in mass quantities. But you're right in that I'd still prefer something less evasive.

LilyStorm wrote:
Flash.

Isn't red.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:01 pm 
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There's no reason for flash to not be red.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:08 pm 
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Tossing out some ideas off the top of my head:
  • Catalyst (Spells targeting this cost less to cast.)
  • Disrupt (If a creature dealt damage by this this turn dies, return that creature to its owner's hand.)
  • False strike (Damage dealt by this creature can't be lethal.)
  • Wuss (This can't attack or block alone.)
  • Easily provoked (Creatures can attack this creature.)


Last edited by ty on Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:10 pm 
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Hmm, quick idea,

Spellstrike (Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, it also deals a like amount of non combat damage to the same player unless he or she puts the top card of their library into their graveyard.)

*edits refining idea and reminder text... as now stands, either gives extra damage or causes mill, which I think fits red and blue accordingly.)


Last edited by Storm_UK on Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:12 pm 
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Oh! The Viashino ability!

Vanish (At the beginning of the end step, return this to its owner's hand.)

Maybe, to make it more blue, let it stick around to your next turn.

Vanish (At the beginning of your upkeep, return this to its owner's hand.)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:15 pm 
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LilyStorm wrote:
There's no reason for flash to not be red.

1. Red is the most proactive and offensive color. Flash is reactive and defensive
2. Red is the color most focused on sorceries. Flash emulates instants.
3. Red's most prominent keyword is haste. Flash clashes with haste in theme and is often redundant in game-play.

I don't really see how flash is red at all. The only non-timespiral use it's gotten are on offensively minded combat-tricks, and that's a total of four cards, all enchantments.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:17 pm 
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One of the first combat keywords I made was called "Support", which allowed a non-attacking creature to enter combat after blockers had been declared, attacking and blocked by another creature that's already blocking. Ugh, that's a complicated sentence. Something that allows the attacker to manipulate blocking assignments (in a way that doesn't just grant free evasion) would be interesting space.

Is it a requirement that this new keyword should affect creature combat in some way? Because I think it definitely should.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:21 pm 
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ty wrote:
Oh! The Viashino ability!

Vanish (At the beginning of the end step, return this to its owner's hand.)

Maybe, to make it more blue, let it stick around to your next turn.

Vanish (At the beginning of your upkeep, return this to its owner's hand.)


The benefit of the viashino ability is to avoid sorcery speed removal. I like it, but it always requires haste or flash to work. (Which interestingly enough, allows it to play quite differently with both colors.)

I like false strike in theory, but it gets weird with double blocking and makes playing burn weird.
I was thinking a modification of the blue/white Fog Bank ability.

Backout (Whenever this creature becomes blocked, you may prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to and by it this turn.)

Edit: Nontriggeredish form: Backout (You may prevent combat damage blockers would deal to this creature this turn. If you do, it deals no combat damage this turn.)


Last edited by Monobluegruul on Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:31 pm 
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ty wrote:
Catalyst (Spells targeting this cost less to cast.)

Fine, but stackable, which is a no-no.

ty wrote:
Disrupt (If a creature dealt damage by this this turn dies, return that creature to its owner's hand.)

Not sure how red we could make this. I've always liked bounce in red; feeds into its "temporary solution" ideas. But I don't think it translates well here.

ty wrote:
False strike (Damage dealt by this creature can't be lethal.)

I don't even no what this does.

ty wrote:
Wuss (This can't attack or block alone.)

Drawback keyword.

ty wrote:
Easily provoked (Creatures can attack this creature.)

Doesn't seem simple enough to insert into Magic. Also, drawback keyword.

Storm_UK wrote:
Hmm, quick idea,

Spellstrike (Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, it also deals a like amount of non combat damage to the same player unless he or she puts the top card of their library into their graveyard.)

Not very simple, not very fundamental, and is a triggered ability.

ty wrote:
Oh! The Viashino ability!

Vanish (At the beginning of the end step, return this to its owner's hand.)

Maybe, to make it more blue, let it stick around to your next turn.

Vanish (At the beginning of your upkeep, return this to its owner's hand.)

Drawback keyword and a triggered ability. I like that as natural space for blue and red to explore together, but I don't think it's doable in the current world of keywords we live in.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:33 pm 
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Red is fast and flash is fast. I never got why red was sorcery matters when blue has the most iconic big sorceires like time warp and enter the infinite. The defensive argument makes sense though.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:43 pm 
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Flash is often flavored as being speedy (Quicken, Hypersonic Dragon). However in actual gameplay Sorceries need to be cast as soon as you have the opportunity, while Instants wait until the last possible moment. Red's speed is represented through immediate action, while Blue's slow thoughtfulness is represented through spells that you hold back until you really need them.

Top-deck a useful Sorcery, and you play it immediately. Top-deck a useful Instant, and you're encouraged to hold onto it.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:58 pm 
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ty wrote:
Oh! The Viashino ability!

Vanish (At the beginning of the end step, return this to its owner's hand.)

Maybe, to make it more blue, let it stick around to your next turn.

Vanish (At the beginning of your upkeep, return this to its owner's hand.)

drawback keyword alert. sorry. already addressed.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:27 pm 
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Can you list the 9 keywords and their colors for reference?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:40 pm 
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My vote for a Blue combat keyword is still some kind of tap-down effect

Stun (Damage dealt by this creature causes creatures to become tapped. They don't untap during their controller's next untap step).

I don't think it works well for Red though, it's more Blue/White if anything.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:43 pm 
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is spellskite any red? i know the ability first planted in white.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:52 pm 
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Sly (Destroy effects of spell or ability return this creature to its owner's hand instead.)

Red doesn't have to be dumb right? i have actually wanted to see phoenix kinda persistence go down in rarity.


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