It is currently Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:23 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 81 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:44 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 15, 2013
Posts: 1937
Location: Roaming Dominaria
Doesn't mean a location can suddenly appear on a different continent, though. Zendikar's geography isn't that chaotic. If the Roil was the explanation for this, it would be pretty hard for characters in the story to keep track of where anything is currently located. I bet Ob Nixilis would still be looking for Khalni Heart then ;)

_________________
"Enchant me with your tale-telling. Tell about Tree, Grass, River, and Wind.
Tell why Truth must fight with Falsehood, and why Truth will always win."
—Love Song of Night and Day


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:45 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jul 11, 2014
Posts: 324
Location: "Welcome to the Grand Tournament, Champion"
Doesn't mean a location can suddenly appear on a different continent, though. Zendikar's geography isn't that chaotic. If the Roil was the explanation for this, it would be pretty hard for characters in the story to keep track of where anything is currently located. I bet Ob Nixilis would still be looking for Khalni Heart then ;)


The characters would be able to keep track of it thanks to their innate magical ability to "sense" the location out and planeswalk to it even if it changed to a different continent.

Right?

I still stand by what I said.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:53 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 15, 2013
Posts: 1937
Location: Roaming Dominaria
It's hard to say because there's no precedent for that sort of thing as we don't know any plane that behaves like that. Also note that Ob couldn't planeswalk at that time, and neither can the average person on Zendikar. Whether or not navigation would still work is irrelevant, the Roil simply doesn't work that way.

_________________
"Enchant me with your tale-telling. Tell about Tree, Grass, River, and Wind.
Tell why Truth must fight with Falsehood, and why Truth will always win."
—Love Song of Night and Day


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:07 am 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10169
It's only natural people will latch onto the only piece of info they have about a new character, though, simply because it's the only piece of info. It's also why I flinched when the Onakke were suddenly referred to as ogres when the deck insert said they were trolls. I still think they look a lot more like trolls than ogres, but that's a different topic entirely... And the 'reformed' Nissa they were going for in Worldwaker would have worked with the previous characterisation we had, but simply ignoring the info from Duels didn't. And I agree with Squid, Nissa would have been a lot better off as an amazing green villain/anti-villain/anti-hero/whatever rather than the sweet treehugger she is now.

Aaaanyway, I think I have another possible item on our list of retcons. The stuff from the webcomics that implies Bolas was behind Liliana getting the Chain Veil is obsolete now, isn't it? Like when Sarkhan follows her and says it's all going according to plan. Liliana's planeswalker novel was cancelled, and it was later implied in UR that the Raven Man is actually behind the Chain Veil plot, right? Or should we leave the scene with Sarkhan in limbo until the Chain Veil arc is resolved and we have all the relevant info?

Edit: Actually, wait, the Onakke thing I just mentioned is a retcon hidden in plain sight. I'll add that to the list.

Bolas wasn't behind it, he just wanted it.

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:17 am 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jul 11, 2014
Posts: 324
Location: "Welcome to the Grand Tournament, Champion"
It's hard to say because there's no precedent for that sort of thing as we don't know any plane that behaves like that. Also note that Ob couldn't planeswalk at that time, and neither can the average person on Zendikar. Whether or not navigation would still work is irrelevant, the Roil simply doesn't work that way.


Ob's singular purpose was to get his spark back. So if he had to search the entirety of Zendikar to do so, he would have done it. How long has he been on Zendikar? I'm sure he'd be familiar with how the Roil works and take the necessary steps to find what he was looking for.

I don't think you can definitively say that the Roil doesn't work that way. Precedent? Why would there need to be a precedent? Zendikar sets the precedent. It's a plane like no other. The Roil is this super powerful plane wide event that is unpredictable.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:43 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10169
It's hard to say because there's no precedent for that sort of thing as we don't know any plane that behaves like that. Also note that Ob couldn't planeswalk at that time, and neither can the average person on Zendikar. Whether or not navigation would still work is irrelevant, the Roil simply doesn't work that way.


Ob's singular purpose was to get his spark back. So if he had to search the entirety of Zendikar to do so, he would have done it. How long has he been on Zendikar? I'm sure he'd be familiar with how the Roil works and take the necessary steps to find what he was looking for.

I don't think you can definitively say that the Roil doesn't work that way. Precedent? Why would there need to be a precedent? Zendikar sets the precedent. It's a plane like no other. The Roil is this super powerful plane wide event that is unpredictable.

This entire argument is moot. Khalni was a place, not a thing that could be moved. To say that the Khalni heart regularly was swooped away across entire continents by the roil is preposterous, doubly so because it was not the roil that did it anyways. Elves did it to try to salvage the power of the place. Khalni did not move.

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:59 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jul 11, 2014
Posts: 324
Location: "Welcome to the Grand Tournament, Champion"
Actually, I just did. I said it moved. Woah so preposterous! It's on a plane where the terrain is flying around. Khalni, a location, which has its foundation in Zendikar soil, which can be moved by the Roil, moved. Period.

At this point, I don't even care if you guys remain believing that it didn't move. My interpretation makes sense, and frankly even if Creative themselves said that's not how the Roil worked, I'm not sure I would care. My interpretation rocks.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:57 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10169
Actually, I just did. I said it moved. Woah so preposterous! It's on a plane where the terrain is flying around. Khalni, a location, which has its foundation in Zendikar soil, which can be moved by the Roil, moved. Period.

At this point, I don't even care if you guys remain believing that it didn't move. My interpretation makes sense, and frankly even if Creative themselves said that's not how the Roil worked, I'm not sure I would care. My interpretation rocks.

And your head canon doesn't affect what actually happened either, but that's not really new.

The roil does cause movement, it is incapable of moving something several continents over without turning it into total debris, ergo, not moving a location as much as destroying it. At what point does a place cease to be a place? What constitutes a place if not structure and familiarity?

If you moved the statue of liberty, you did not move New York.

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:29 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 15, 2013
Posts: 1937
Location: Roaming Dominaria
Wait, elves moved it? Where does that come from? I just dug up the UR in question again (Nissa's Resolve) to look for hints of an explanation, and the only bit I found was this:

If the rumors were true—and they were, they must be—then the heart of Zendikar's power had come here to revive the land, growing a new bud somewhere on this continent. Wherever that was, that's where she would find the soul of the land. That's where Zendikar must have retreated.

That seems to explain it alright, which is strange because I remember this issue causing quite a bit of confusion when the story was first released, and I think no-one pointed to this paragraph. So either nobody (myself included) paid attention to it, or someone did and I've selectively forgotten about it, or they went back and inserted that piece of info later (wouldn't be the first time they retroactively tamper with a story). So, whatever, seems like it has a reasonable explanation after all. I guess I can take this off the list then.

_________________
"Enchant me with your tale-telling. Tell about Tree, Grass, River, and Wind.
Tell why Truth must fight with Falsehood, and why Truth will always win."
—Love Song of Night and Day


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:31 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jul 11, 2014
Posts: 324
Location: "Welcome to the Grand Tournament, Champion"
Depends on what actually constitutes Khalni Heart.

If the Roil destroyed 30% of Khlani Heart, but moved 70% of it to the new continent, would that still be Khalni Heart?

Heh, the heart of Zendikar's power relocated the growth of the Khalni Heart bud? I'll take it. I would think the Roil is an extension of that heart, but I'll concede that it sounds like it was through slightly more intentional means it would seem.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:21 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10169
Wait, elves moved it? Where does that come from? .

The Art of Zendikar book.
This is a detail that creative decided happened offscreen, but when it became relevant didn't actually clue us in to what happened.

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:32 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 15, 2013
Posts: 1937
Location: Roaming Dominaria
But how does that go together with the paragraph from the story I quoted? Seriously, I think we should burn all copies of that wretched artbook. Nothing but trouble has come from it so far.

*throws paper around and rubs temples*

_________________
"Enchant me with your tale-telling. Tell about Tree, Grass, River, and Wind.
Tell why Truth must fight with Falsehood, and why Truth will always win."
—Love Song of Night and Day


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:45 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10169
But how does that go together with the paragraph from the story I quoted? Seriously, I think we should burn all copies of that wretched artbook. Nothing but trouble has come from it so far.

*throws paper around and rubs temples*

It didn't say Zendikar was starting a new bud from scratch. The elves brought the bud from Akoum and planted it.

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:05 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jul 11, 2014
Posts: 324
Location: "Welcome to the Grand Tournament, Champion"
Eh, technically the blurb from the UR was referencing rumors.
-Snip- Nevermind, artbooks are cool. It still stands that there really isn't a retcon. It was moved.


Last edited by StoicChampion on Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:08 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jul 11, 2014
Posts: 324
Location: "Welcome to the Grand Tournament, Champion"
Also... why were Barinellos and I arguing that the Khalni Heart was a physical location that couldn't be moved, then Barinellos turns out to have the tidbit about the bud which can be moved, and it turns out you can change the location of Khalni Heart, just based on a bud.

Shaking my head.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:10 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10169
Also... why were Barinellos and I arguing that the Khalni Heart was a physical location that couldn't be moved, then Barinellos turns out to have the tidbit about the bud which can be moved, and it turns out you can change the location of Khalni Heart, just based on a bud.

Shaking my head.

Because Khalni is a place and the Khalni Heart is an object.
Khalni=/=Khalni Heart

It goes back to the earlier metaphor of the statue of liberty and New York.

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:19 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jul 11, 2014
Posts: 324
Location: "Welcome to the Grand Tournament, Champion"
Ok... why does that matter?

Khalni Heart originally grew at the Khalni location, and unless I'm confusing my chicken with my egg, Khalni also grew from that central bud outward. So, you could say a new portion of Khalni grew from the bud at the new location, so if you were looking at the map, you'd see a Khalni, and a New Khalni on the other continent.

No Zendikari was wasting their time with cartography because at that point in time the Eldrazi were tearing everything apart, so really you just had an extension of Khalni at two separate places.

The Statue of Liberty metaphor doesn't quite work because New York didn't spawn because of the existence of the statue, the Statue was a gift that was moved there after New York had already been established.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:23 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10169
Ok... why does that matter?

Khalni Heart originally grew at the Khalni location, and unless I'm confusing my chicken with my egg, Khalni also grew from that central bud outward. So, you could say a new portion of Khalni grew from the bud at the new location, so if you were looking at the map, you'd see a Khalni, and a New Khalni on the other continent.

No Zendikari was wasting their time with cartography because at that point in time the Eldrazi were tearing everything apart, so really you just had an extension of Khalni at two separate places.

The Statue of Liberty metaphor doesn't quite work because New York didn't spawn because of the existence of the statue, the Statue was a gift that was moved there after New York had already been established.

I'm not so certain that is true. We've no real reason to suspect the Khalni Forest sprouted from the heart or if the heart grew in the forest.
What we can say is that Ora Ondor existed because of the heart, but everything else kind of falls into conjecture.

And I'd argue since they planted the new heart in Bala Ged, there is no second Khalni forest. There might never be given the state of the continent. Even then, it's debatable if they'd call it New Khalni or something else, but it'd definitely be its own thing, not just an extension. The ecosystem was different so it can't be just an extension.

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:48 pm 
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jul 11, 2014
Posts: 324
Location: "Welcome to the Grand Tournament, Champion"
Alright.

So we've established that Khalni Heart is akin to the Statue of Liberty, and elves moved it there. Thank God for Elves that appreciate independence and freedom. The area where the new Khalni Heart grows will hence forth be its own thing, possibly Khalni Gedd, which does not have a second Khalni Forest, because every movie I've watched as a kid showing magical botanical growth doesn't apply here.

We've also established that there was no retcon related to the Khalni Heart change of address. Although after this discussion I'm ready for Barinellos to jump out of the bushes of the Khalni Forest and declare some other piece of information I was unaware of that might just bring the retcon detail back.

Good job everyone. We left the world better than it was this morning.


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List of retcons?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:01 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Posts: 10169
Nah, in fairness, I never said it was a retcon. I said it was an offscreen detail they failed to disclose appropriately when relevant, but they did address it nonetheless.

_________________
At twilight's end, the shadow's crossed / a new world birthed, the elder lost.
Yet on the morn we wake to find / that mem'ry left so far behind.
To deafened ears we ask, unseen / "Which is life and which the dream?"


Like this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 81 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group