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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:55 am 
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Some day, a bad thing will happen to Liliana that is not entirely her own fault.

Today was not that day, but I am still VERY HERE for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:45 pm 
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On a side note, seeing overstep its bounds would be great. They almost did it in Shadows over Innistrad, where the angels really gave the impression that the world was tilting towards mana, fitting for all the chaos and insanity.

But then Emrakul.

This was pretty great! I've always felt like the strength of the colours was disproportionately tilted. For me, it always seemed like the "best" colours were black --> blue --> white --> red/green. Red and green always felt really passive to me from what I read in the books. They just felt underpowered in their representation while the other colours were much more active. I feel like it's a recurring theme in a lot of the narratives but it's been a while since I reread the older stories.

The original Mirrodin story: The elves just periodically get slaughtered by levellers and felt very "well that's just the way things are." Plus the vedalken seemed to be the ones with advances artifact attack bots and were the militarily strongest faction. The leonin were constantly under attack by the nim and just had to deal with siege after siege of Taj Nar. Eventually blue and black just sort of take over while the elves don't really accomplish much that I recall, the leonin get mislead by a doppleganger, and I don't even know what red was doing this entire time.

The original Lorwyn story: The whole plane is getting manipulated by a blue/black faerie goddess. The elves felt like they lost a lot when the world shifted them from green/black to green/white, and the cinder elemental people again seemed to really lack direction except to try to ultimately incinerate the world.

Alara: Bolas manipulates all five shards and the black shard basically stomps the blue shard. So much for balance between colours there.

The original Ravnica: This felt a little more balanced, but the blue and black aligned guilds still felt like they had a stronger representation to me. From the Golgari destroying the stone colossus, to the Simic trying to destroy civilization, to the Izzet Firemind scheming for control.

Kamigawa: This was one of the few times I felt like the colours were better represented. The main villain was white, there was a powerful evil red ogre mage, the blue soratami were powerful, and we were positioned behind a blackaligned protagonist. The whole goal of "restoring the natural order" felt really green too.


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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Empyreal wrote:
On a side note, seeing overstep its bounds would be great. They almost did it in Shadows over Innistrad, where the angels really gave the impression that the world was tilting towards mana, fitting for all the chaos and insanity.

But then Emrakul.

This was pretty great! I've always felt like the strength of the colours was disproportionately tilted. For me, it always seemed like the "best" colours were black --> blue --> white --> red/green. Red and green always felt really passive to me from what I read in the books. They just felt underpowered in their representation while the other colours were much more active. I feel like it's a recurring theme in a lot of the narratives but it's been a while since I reread the older stories.

The original Mirrodin story: The elves just periodically get slaughtered by levellers and felt very "well that's just the way things are." Plus the vedalken seemed to be the ones with advances artifact attack bots and were the militarily strongest faction. The leonin were constantly under attack by the nim and just had to deal with siege after siege of Taj Nar. Eventually blue and black just sort of take over while the elves don't really accomplish much that I recall, the leonin get mislead by a doppleganger, and I don't even know what red was doing this entire time.

The original Lorwyn story: The whole plane is getting manipulated by a blue/black faerie goddess. The elves felt like they lost a lot when the world shifted them from green/black to green/white, and the cinder elemental people again seemed to really lack direction except to try to ultimately incinerate the world.

Alara: Bolas manipulates all five shards and the black shard basically stomps the blue shard. So much for balance between colours there.

The original Ravnica: This felt a little more balanced, but the blue and black aligned guilds still felt like they had a stronger representation to me. From the Golgari destroying the stone colossus, to the Simic trying to destroy civilization, to the Izzet Firemind scheming for control.

Kamigawa: This was one of the few times I felt like the colours were better represented. The main villain was white, there was a powerful evil red ogre mage, the blue soratami were powerful, and we were positioned behind a blackaligned protagonist. The whole goal of "restoring the natural order" felt really green too.


I think that's more a fault of color pie philosophy being incorrectly developed for its intended use. The way it's presented now is actually extremely individualistic. It looks primarily at what an individual desire and how that manifests, but not as much as what type of societies foster those types of mindsets.

For example, red is all about having the freedom to do whatever you want, and green is about tradition. You might think this means that a red would have a harder time with making a society than green. However in practice, red is more likely to have an advanced civilization than green. This is because red needs a higher level of civilization in order to actually have its desires serve a purpose, while green doesn't.

For as much thought Maro put into the individual's part of the color wheel, there hasn't been nearly as much thought into the societal side of the color wheel. Red and Green get particularly shafted in this because Blue and Black societies tend to match aspects of Captialism more (idea of a meritocracy for blue, and corporate self-interest for black), and White gets all the more advanced government focused ideologies (Democracy, Monarchy, etc).

This typically leaves Red and Green with less developed philosophies for their societies and thus makes themes easier to defeat. WotC really ought stop thinking of things like societal ideas in terms of "government is white" or "corruption is black." Instead, there needs to be more "Democracy is a red form of government, whereas a Republic leans more to white" or "Nepotism is a green form of corruption, but using puppet officials is black."


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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:42 am 
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True, though one can see this as a balance in that and get to have power over the primal forces of nature while gets to have society as a whole, with and getting a little of both.

A lot of this can be seen as just the limitations of storytelling. Back when was the second evil color we had expansionist factions like Keld.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:50 am 
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Well, first of all I'm glad that the major events that have been hinted at (Zhalfir coming back (maybe?), Teferi becoming a 'walker again, the Weatherlight being rebuilt) are yet to come and didn't just happen off-screen.

Second, the Gatewatch has been surprisingly bearable so far, the first story even managed to make them feel like their pre-Origins incarnations (which is pretty much my only measure of Gatewatch-bearableness in a story these days). Of course the second story screwed that up with the unneccessary reference to Gideon's irregulars and reminded me why I want to see his head on a pike, but at least his overall characterisation was still fine.

I liked the dark tone and atmosphere of the Vess and Cabal parts, and it was cool to see normal folks on Dominaria just living their normal medieval fantasy lives in a place like Benalia. On the other hand, a lot about that occult mumbo-jumbo didn't make sense to me or was hard to understand. Like...

Spoiler

I like what they're doing with Belzenlok. That's some good propaganda right there. Hail thee, Belzenlok, Vanquisher of Marit Lage, Cosmic Ferret of Doom, Ebon Praetor, God Emperor of Madara! :laugh:

I hope we'll get some background info on that Blackblade, though. We know the card is called Blackblade Reforged, but that doesn't mean anything as long as we don't even know that it was broken, and how. I would have actually preferred a card that's just called Blackblade and looks like the original one, especially since the card does exactly what you'd expect the Blackblade to do. Korlash, Heir to Blackblade is also wielding the original one, so I guess he must have been involved in breaking it somehow? Here's hoping everything will fall into place eventually.

Can't wait for Jodah to show up!

Edit: There's also a card called Rona, Disciple of Gix, so I wouldn't be surprised if Belzenlok has 'become' Gix, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:16 pm 
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Empyreal wrote:
On a side note, seeing overstep its bounds would be great. They almost did it in Shadows over Innistrad, where the angels really gave the impression that the world was tilting towards mana, fitting for all the chaos and insanity.

But then Emrakul.

This was pretty great! I've always felt like the strength of the colours was disproportionately tilted. For me, it always seemed like the "best" colours were black --> blue --> white --> red/green. Red and green always felt really passive to me from what I read in the books. They just felt underpowered in their representation while the other colours were much more active. I feel like it's a recurring theme in a lot of the narratives but it's been a while since I reread the older stories.

The original Mirrodin story: The elves just periodically get slaughtered by levellers and felt very "well that's just the way things are." Plus the vedalken seemed to be the ones with advances artifact attack bots and were the militarily strongest faction. The leonin were constantly under attack by the nim and just had to deal with siege after siege of Taj Nar. Eventually blue and black just sort of take over while the elves don't really accomplish much that I recall, the leonin get mislead by a doppleganger, and I don't even know what red was doing this entire time.

The original Lorwyn story: The whole plane is getting manipulated by a blue/black faerie goddess. The elves felt like they lost a lot when the world shifted them from green/black to green/white, and the cinder elemental people again seemed to really lack direction except to try to ultimately incinerate the world.

Alara: Bolas manipulates all five shards and the black shard basically stomps the blue shard. So much for balance between colours there.

The original Ravnica: This felt a little more balanced, but the blue and black aligned guilds still felt like they had a stronger representation to me. From the Golgari destroying the stone colossus, to the Simic trying to destroy civilization, to the Izzet Firemind scheming for control.

Kamigawa: This was one of the few times I felt like the colours were better represented. The main villain was white, there was a powerful evil red ogre mage, the blue soratami were powerful, and we were positioned behind a blackaligned protagonist. The whole goal of "restoring the natural order" felt really green too.


I think that's more a fault of color pie philosophy being incorrectly developed for its intended use. The way it's presented now is actually extremely individualistic. It looks primarily at what an individual desire and how that manifests, but not as much as what type of societies foster those types of mindsets.

For example, red is all about having the freedom to do whatever you want, and green is about tradition. You might think this means that a red would have a harder time with making a society than green. However in practice, red is more likely to have an advanced civilization than green. This is because red needs a higher level of civilization in order to actually have its desires serve a purpose, while green doesn't.

For as much thought Maro put into the individual's part of the color wheel, there hasn't been nearly as much thought into the societal side of the color wheel. Red and Green get particularly shafted in this because Blue and Black societies tend to match aspects of Captialism more (idea of a meritocracy for blue, and corporate self-interest for black), and White gets all the more advanced government focused ideologies (Democracy, Monarchy, etc).

This typically leaves Red and Green with less developed philosophies for their societies and thus makes themes easier to defeat. WotC really ought stop thinking of things like societal ideas in terms of "government is white" or "corruption is black." Instead, there needs to be more "Democracy is a red form of government, whereas a Republic leans more to white" or "Nepotism is a green form of corruption, but using puppet officials is black."

I wish we could see more advanced red and green civilisations too. I feel like they tend to cap out at simple tribes which don't get the same complexity and care that the more city-oriented colours get.

True, though one can see this as a balance in that and get to have power over the primal forces of nature while gets to have society as a whole, with and getting a little of both.

A lot of this can be seen as just the limitations of storytelling. Back when was the second evil color we had expansionist factions like Keld.
Seeing red get a "smash the filth of black! They're trying to sap us of our freedom and strength!" I get they're allied colours but I think they can still have friction.


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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:03 am 
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Today's UR (Magic Story): RETURN TO DOMINARIA: EPISODE 3

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:53 am 
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Start the ork!

This chapter worries me slightly. There's a lot of characters introduced here, but there's so much going on that we don't get to see all that much about how these characters interact in the beginning. For example, Shanna and Jhoira bond on their way to Benalia, but what about the third member on the trip back to the Weatherlight? In the long run, I know it's due to the amount of total length of the Dominaria script. It's a shame, because both gathering the crew and the Josu arc could have been enough for one book and cramming everything together will ultimately diminish the impact of the individual parts. That being said, it's been well done considering the limited amount of space allotted to it.

Also, what's the opposite of a sausage fest? For a big chunk of the story it looked like the Weatherlight crew was going to be a bunch of women and Hadi as a minor character off to the side. I wouldn't actually mind that, but I kinda want a joke-y term for it. Egg platter?


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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:59 am 
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Also, what's the opposite of a sausage fest? For a big chunk of the story it looked like the Weatherlight crew was going to be a bunch of women and Hadi as a minor character off to the side. I wouldn't actually mind that, but I kinda want a joke-y term for it. Egg platter?
The phrase you are looking for is "clam bake."

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You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:53 am 
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Sounds lewd

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:43 pm 
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This chapter worries me slightly. There's a lot of characters introduced here, but there's so much going on that we don't get to see all that much about how these characters interact in the beginning. For example, Shanna and Jhoira bond on their way to Benalia, but what about the third member on the trip back to the Weatherlight? In the long run, I know it's due to the amount of total length of the Dominaria script. It's a shame, because both gathering the crew and the Josu arc could have been enough for one book and cramming everything together will ultimately diminish the impact of the individual parts. That being said, it's been well done considering the limited amount of space allotted to it.
Pretty much this. Dominaria would have more than deserved to get a proper novel, especially since they already hired a professional author to write the story. Like the last two episodes, there was a lot of "tell, don't show" due to the limited space the author was given to work with. Rebuilding the Weatherlight seemed super easy, and so did sailing the world to pick up people. But yeah, Martha Wells did a good job despite the inferior medium. I find it pretty silly that Jhoira would pick people simply based on who their ancestors were, but I reckon that's just marketing looking for questionable ways to milk nostalgia and not the author's fault.

On the whole, though, I think this was the best story so far. Being set on Dominaria makes it automatically ten times as immersive, and I liked that it was all about Jhoira. Also, dat owl :bigeyes: I have a hard time believing that Jhoira actually misses Venser, though. Then again, he probably popped in once in a while after Future Sight (to get some slowtime water?), so who knows.

Some notable quotes:
Spoiler

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:55 pm 
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Quote:
Raff lifted his chin. "Jodah of Tolaria himself said I was one of the most accomplished students he had ever seen."
Together, everybody: "Ertai Raff has tremendous native capability." :roll: Seriously, though, I'm not too excited about the new Weatherlight crew. We have a descendant of Sisay, a new Ertai, a new Crovax along with a possible Selenia stand-in... Not very original so far. And it's cool that Ajani is there, but I guess you could consider him the obligatory cat person on the crew.
They find a minotaur stand-in and go pick up Squee, then they basically have the crew rounded out.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:06 pm 
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*looks at Firesong and Sunspeaker*

My money's on TWO minotaur stand-ins! :roll:

It'll be really nice to have Squee and Karn back, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:15 pm 
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I just imagine Jhoira at home keeping expert genealogy records for hundreds of years all while planning to eventually dredge up the Weatherlight and make the descendants of her old friends play hero again....because being an immortal is boring as hell and she really has nothing better to do than listen to either Teferi or Jodah gripe about old things. She's all "No, I'm gunna make my hero-kids fan-fic a reality! I'm gunna fix up the old ship and travel around the world getting the genetic band back together and it's going to be awesome because it just has to be! And nothing will be different or go wrong, I'm sure of it!" And in the background Teferi is like "Jhoira, you're old and crazy. Just settle down and have some kids already like I did. Then you can sit on your porch and bug them with tales about half-remembered ancient history all day like I do!"

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magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:24 pm 
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AzureShade wrote:
However, she does point out to new readers some things to research if they want to, like Dakkon Blackblade. Essentially, she's writing in a way that allows varying degrees of investment.

On that note I was sort of wracking my brain for a bit trying to remember which elder dragon he had killed only to give up and go check the wiki. Turns out it was Chromium's mate Piru, so not an elder dragon who had a card.


I thought the 5 who got cards were the survivors of the Elder Dragon War?

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:27 pm 
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Also, what's the opposite of a sausage fest? For a big chunk of the story it looked like the Weatherlight crew was going to be a bunch of women and Hadi as a minor character off to the side. I wouldn't actually mind that, but I kinda want a joke-y term for it. Egg platter?

Eh, it does bother me just a little since I feel like they're overcorrecting after accusations that there weren't enough women in the first place. Really needs to be a balance to it, not loading down one side for either.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:18 pm 
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Okay, having read the story, I feel I can weigh in.
First, I don't really like Tiana. I find her sheepishness to be trying and that's doing a lot to put me off her character. Overall, it's partly due the fact that I really don't approve of trying to humanize angels in the first place, which doesn't mean I disapprove of a sympathetic angel, but this entire doe eyed schtick is saccharine and ill fitting something like her.

Huh... I think Shanna might actually be older than Sisay was. That's an interesting twist if true.

I actually like Raff more than I expected. Not having Danitha is actually a good change of roles too. But in getting all the 1:1 roles filled, it makes me wonder what we'll see for the Orim and Hannah stand in.

I like that Ajani seems to move in the really storied circles. I wonder if he sought Jhoira out because Tamiyo told him a story.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:22 pm 
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I think Tiana, as an artificer, is our Hanna for the set. I actually don't mind her as long as it's CLEAR that she's an aberration of an angel. I mean, time will tell how well she keeps being portrayed but I sort of liked her being drawn on by thoughts and impulses she couldn't explain, like she was actually hearing the Voice of God -- Serra, in this case -- and could act on it without conscious awareness.

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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:21 pm 
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I think Tiana, as an artificer, is our Hanna for the set. I actually don't mind her as long as it's CLEAR that she's an aberration of an angel. I mean, time will tell how well she keeps being portrayed but I sort of liked her being drawn on by thoughts and impulses she couldn't explain, like she was actually hearing the Voice of God -- Serra, in this case -- and could act on it without conscious awareness.


Going from the art, they're going for Kaylee Frye. Which is ironic, because in terms of putting a female in a traditional male role, I would bring her up. (Essentially, Kaylee doesn't take up traditionally masculine traits to explain her affinity for machines. Rather they play up the traditionally female trait of "nurturing" in order to show how she can be as good as she is. She doesn't need to be masculine to do masculine things.) Thinking about it, Tiana being the guardian angel of a machine is an interesting take as to why she can be the engineer; there's no need to make her more human and less angel-y.


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 Post subject: Re: Uncharted Realms
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:06 pm 
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I think Tiana, as an artificer, is our Hanna for the set. I actually don't mind her as long as it's CLEAR that she's an aberration of an angel. I mean, time will tell how well she keeps being portrayed but I sort of liked her being drawn on by thoughts and impulses she couldn't explain, like she was actually hearing the Voice of God -- Serra, in this case -- and could act on it without conscious awareness.


Going from the art, they're going for Kaylee Frye. Which is ironic, because in terms of putting a female in a traditional male role, I would bring her up. (Essentially, Kaylee doesn't take up traditionally masculine traits to explain her affinity for machines. Rather they play up the traditionally female trait of "nurturing" in order to show how she can be as good as she is. She doesn't need to be masculine to do masculine things.) Thinking about it, Tiana being the guardian angel of a machine is an interesting take as to why she can be the engineer; there's no need to make her more human and less angel-y.

When and where did we get art for Tiana? It's not showing in the story for me and I didn't see any broken jpegs.

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