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 Post subject: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:28 am 
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This list is an ongoing effort to keep track of all retcons in Magic's (revisionist) continuity. Suggestions for further additions or improvements to the layout of the list are always welcome, and so is help with reconstructing the month and the source in which the older retcons on the list were implemented.

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Last edited by Pavor Nocturnus on Wed May 30, 2018 12:03 pm, edited 9 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:30 am 
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For reference, here's a link to the thread that started the list:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=15082

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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:33 am 
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Just in case anyone cares, I updated the list to include more sources and the months in which they were published. I'll track down more stuff eventually when I have more time.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 6:52 pm 
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To clarify what is explicitly contradicted in the more narrow cases, I'd recommend a kind of update changelog that gives quotes (or panel descriptions in the case of the webcomics) from each story resource before and after the retcon.

This might not be the place to host that, as hitting every single change with two quotes would prove unwieldy in those numbers, but it'd help remove contradicted bits with surgical precision while leaving the remainder of the story resource not dependent on the detail as canon.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:21 am 
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I'm a bit torn on this to be honest. I'm by no means against it per see, I'm just not sure if the benefit of doing that would outweigh the work it would require. I think the cases in which surgical precision in replacing parts could even be achieved aren't the cases that would require a lot more clarification. For now, I'd be happy enough to track down all sources and their respective month of publication, and especially the Zendikar parts are going to take some time to disentangle. I won't get around to finishing all of that properly before some time in November (it's a busy year for me). Then again, I'm serious about this list and want it to improve constantly, so if you want to start compiling material for such an update log, I certainly won't say no. I think we could even host it here in the OP if we just put everything in another spoiler tag below the first one and connect it to the items on the list via numbered footnotes. Then it could just act as annotations or a kind of appendix, and we could even add links to the short stories that come up in the list.

So the bottom line is, I guess it's not a bad idea, but I won't be able to seriously tackle it until I've finished dealing with the other issues first. Once the basic references and chronology are in order, I might give it a shot, and it would be easier once we know where to look for the quotes etc. anyway.


That said, it's always cool to see people contributing to and caring about the list. Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:50 pm 
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Oddball additions that I have on hand:
Spoiler


For what it's worth, L'Etoile's retcons in Homesick and Burn appeared to unintentionally remove and purposefully restore the same detail. Learning all of the ins and outs of nearly a decade of Post-Mending story (1.6 million+ words) should not be a requirement before writing, but in that event other Magic Story writers should be responsible for editing and removing those sort of errors before they are made public.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 5:57 am 
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Test of Metal itself has been put in the trash bin, no need to pick apart the details of what's changed, it's all non canon.
(well, I suppose Tezzeret's origin isn't contradicted, but everything else pretty much has been.)

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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 3:35 pm 
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All of these things are stuff that I can't find any flaws in. It's like the story writers in WotC don't care about the story they're writing for their game.

Something I'm way to familiar with. If I wanted a retcon, I'd do it through something like Sonic the Comic's Super Genesis Wave or some other **** like that. I don't like to disrespect a story that was already established.

I'm just hoping that they don't add filler to create new expansions like other studios did with Naruto and Sonic the Hedgehog, but considering how they did the transition between Urza and Jace, I'm sure that is a relatively distant possibility.


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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 4:57 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
Test of Metal itself has been put in the trash bin, no need to pick apart the details of what's changed, it's all non canon.
(well, I suppose Tezzeret's origin isn't contradicted, but everything else pretty much has been.)

His origins are what I'd hope to see salvaged from it as well.

And still, not everyone is aware of why it's not canon. Pointing out the accumulation of contradictions and following the core guideline of "new material trumps old material," even with a story as absurd as Test, feels necessary to prevent players painting other novels with a similarly large brush. (This fear stemming from fans who were willing to exaggerate the temporary Homesick retcon into a much larger decanonization of the ending of The Purifying Fire.)

Test of Metal's plot can be picked apart so thoroughly that it doesn't stand on its own. Jace and Liliana's reunion, Liliana revealing to Jace that Tezzeret was alive, Tezzeret and Liliana's reunion, Breya having made etherium despite non-Planeswalker status, Tezzeret's Agents of Artifice temperament continuing on Kaladesh, Tezzeret's etherium arm . . . existing; there are enough significant strikes against it to where I'd rather record them than rely on people memorizing "Test is bad" as a rule.

All of these things are stuff that I can't find any flaws in. It's like the story writers in WotC don't care about the story they're writing for their game.

I've talked with recent and current members of the Story team and they genuinely do care. They want to reward those with the highest investment in the game's story. Admittedly, that got off to a horribly bumpy start with Origins, the pre-existing cluster**** that was Zendikar's lore, and the Eldrazi arc.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 5:17 pm 
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vronos wrote:
Barinellos wrote:
Test of Metal itself has been put in the trash bin, no need to pick apart the details of what's changed, it's all non canon.
(well, I suppose Tezzeret's origin isn't contradicted, but everything else pretty much has been.)

His origins are what I'd hope to see salvaged from it as well.

And still, not everyone is aware of why it's not canon. Pointing out the accumulation of contradictions and following the core guideline of "new material trumps old material," even with a story as absurd as Test, feels necessary to prevent players painting other novels with a similarly large brush. (This fear stemming from fans who were willing to exaggerate the temporary Homesick retcon into a much larger decanonization of the ending of The Purifying Fire.)

Test of Metal's plot can be picked apart so thoroughly that it doesn't stand on its own. Jace and Liliana's reunion, Liliana revealing to Jace that Tezzeret was alive, Tezzeret and Liliana's reunion, Breya having made etherium despite non-Planeswalker status, Tezzeret's Agents of Artifice temperament continuing on Kaladesh, Tezzeret's etherium arm . . . existing; there are enough significant strikes against it to where I'd rather record them than rely on people memorizing "Test is bad" as a rule.

You don't even have to rely on a death of a thousand stings to throw Test into the garbage because it does it on its own. And I'm not talking about the fact it's horrible (it is), but rather that the book is self retconning.

The ending uses clockworking to undo the future (that is aku). By the time we get to the end, none of it has happened.

Also, let the record show Matt Stover acted like a prig.

All that said, I'm all for collecting evidence of how the book falls to pieces. Mostly as evidence that it IS unsalvagable dreck, but I feel it's also important to use that larger brush in this instance just because it HAS fallen apart in totality. There's nothing there except his backstory, and that's being generous.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:12 am 
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I'm new to this part of the forum. Should Gideon's surprise at seeing his own blood in Judgment be added to the list of retcons, considering that in the art for Near-Death Experience his left arm is bleeding? Or at least I assume it's bleeding, as the blood is red, there are no other human(oid) bodies around him, and I'm pretty sure it was established very early on that the Eldrazi had purplish blood.

Excerpt from Story Article


Close Up of Near-Death Experience's Art

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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:22 am 
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Gideon is definitely bleeding during Limits, and I suspect BFZ-block stories may have him bleed as well. Was Gideon even ever meant to be invulnerable (through spellcasting anyway)? Because I feel it's just an mistaken extrapolation of his first card that needed the phrase to play intuitively.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:16 pm 
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Knight Otu wrote:
Gideon is definitely bleeding during Limits, and I suspect BFZ-block stories may have him bleed as well. Was Gideon even ever meant to be invulnerable (through spellcasting anyway)? Because I feel it's just an mistaken extrapolation of his first card that needed the phrase to play intuitively.

Gideon's blood was kinda the centerpiece of a ritual performed on Diraden.

But all this was really before his (literal) golden boy invincibility routine became a thing.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:32 pm 
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Wow, this thread has been busy. Excellent.

And man, it's become complicated, too. Let's see what we can do with all of this...


vronos wrote:
Oddball additions that I have on hand:
Innistrad
- [7/2016] The truth of the Helvault's origins were unknown to Sorin ("Avacyn and the Helvault" in The Art of Magic: Innistrad) was changed to [4/2016] Sorin having brought the shard down from the moon (Promises Old and New)
I'm not sure if I would call this a straigh up retcon, because the version from the story that's probably supposed to be the canonical one is older than the version in the artbook. Which means nothing was ever replaced by something else, just that the artbook is wrong (note to self: one more reason to not buy them). I'm definitely glad you brought it up and documented it here, but it's not something I'd feel comfortable putting on the actual list, it's just an inconsistency of a different kind. I mean, technically you could argue new material trumps older material, but I think the information that actually came up in the story and seems to be somewhat relevant was probably intended to stay in continuity.

vronos wrote:
- [9/2011] Mikaeus frantically attempts to solve the mystery of Avacyn’s disappearance (Innistrad Player's Guide) was changed to [7/2016] Only Lunarch Mikaeus—the head of Avacyn’s church—and his most trusted bishops witnessed the battle and its terrible end. ("Griselbrand and Avacyn's Fall" in The Art of Magic: Innistrad)
That definitely looks like a retcon to me at first glance, but I'm pretty sure the information that Mikaeus and his inner circle actually witnessed the battle was already established during the originl Innistrad block and predates the artbook by several years.

[Note to self: try and find the source from the original Innistrad block]

vronos wrote:
Ravnica
Writing Errors
- [8/2012] In Ravnica, Then and Now, Jace's time spent leading the Ravnican cell of the Consortium (including his encounter with Garruk) was unintentionally omitted by the author.
Hm, yeah, agreed, this seems to have been unintentional. I'm pretty sure there are later sources that still acknowledge the parts omitted in the article, right?

vronos wrote:
Miscellaneous
- [10/2010] Jace and Liliana(s) meeting in the novel Test of Metal (Test of Metal) was changed to [7/2015]Jace hadn't seen Liliana Vess since the day he'd realized she was playing him (Catching Up).
It's awsome that the Test of Metal discussion I wanted to instigate eventually just happened without my doing. Well then, how do we approach ToM? I've always stayed away from that book precisely because of the reputation it has, but I guess it should probably get its own sub-section on the list, just like what I did with Magic Origins. I would go with the most thorough approach and first clarify why it erases its own plot from canon anyway (if that's actually what happens) and then make a list of individual points that have been contradicted by other sources since, just to be safe. I'll just start with the one that vronos already shared. Can someone give me a sentence or two roughly explaining why ToM erases itself that I can put on the list?

[Note to... everyone who has read ToM and is willing to help, I guess: try and track down more sources that contradict Test of Metal, preferably along with the month in which they were published]

vronos wrote:
For what it's worth, L'Etoile's retcons in Homesick and Burn appeared to unintentionally remove and purposefully restore the same detail. Learning all of the ins and outs of nearly a decade of Post-Mending story (1.6 million+ words) should not be a requirement before writing, but in that event other Magic Story writers should be responsible for editing and removing those sort of errors before they are made public.
Pretty much this. I'm starting to doubt that anyone proofreads any of the stories, ever, if screwups of that magnitude can happen. I could almost hear the sound of years of continuity tumbling down the very moment I read the "No" coming out of Gideon's mouth, so surely someone on a whole team of writers should have caught this? Why didn't they just do a sneak-edit and issue an offical clarification instead of waiting with fixing it for the entire block? I was angry and devastated about it for months. And I agree it's not possible or necessary for every writer to have read everything, but I expect everyone who is writing stories about the Gatewatch to have read the entirety of AoA and TPF at least. You just can't presume to write stories about characters about which you have only the faintest of ideas for an audience that has been with those characters from the start. It's not going to work. Not only are you going to wreak havoc in the continuity (as 'Homesick' did), you are also going to completely miss the voice and personality of the characters in question (which every single one of L'Etoiles Gatewatch stories did). God, I just hated that guy so much. But back on topic...

I'd leave the Gideon thing alone. His invulnerabilty was established in his story in Origins, and I already got that covered on the list. Besides, the Amonkhet story only says he looked as if he'd never seen his own blood before, not that he hasn't. My preferred explanation for the art of Near-Death Experience would be that the fight took long enough for Gideon to be too exhausted to use his invulnerabilty (which he has to focus on and presumably channel mana into). The story that belongs to the card art ('The Battle of Fort Keff') would make this seem plausible.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:59 pm 
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vronos wrote:
- [9/2011] Mikaeus frantically attempts to solve the mystery of Avacyn’s disappearance (Innistrad Player's Guide) was changed to [7/2016] Only Lunarch Mikaeus—the head of Avacyn’s church—and his most trusted bishops witnessed the battle and its terrible end. ("Griselbrand and Avacyn's Fall" in The Art of Magic: Innistrad)
That definitely looks like a retcon to me at first glance, but I'm pretty sure the information that Mikaeus and his inner circle actually witnessed the battle was already established during the originl Innistrad block and predates the artbook by several years.

[Note to self: try and find the source from the original Innistrad block]

Your best bet is to chase that back through Liliana. She raised Mikaeus specifically because he knew what happened.

Quote:
vronos wrote:
Ravnica
Writing Errors
- [8/2012] In Ravnica, Then and Now, Jace's time spent leading the Ravnican cell of the Consortium (including his encounter with Garruk) was unintentionally omitted by the author.
Hm, yeah, agreed, this seems to have been unintentional. I'm pretty sure there are later sources that still acknowledge the parts omitted in the article, right?

If you want to be technical, this kinda counts as an unretcon since Jace abandoned the Consortium at the end of AoA, so when he turned up in Garruk's quest, it took most of us by surprise to the point Brady had to step in with 'ghost canon' as he put it.

Quote:
It's awsome that the Test of Metal discussion I wanted to instigate eventually just happened without my doing.
I hate that book. It was inevitable.
Quote:
Well then, how do we approach ToM? I've always stayed away from that book precisely because of the reputation it has, but I guess it should probably get its own sub-section on the list, just like what I did with Magic Origins.
Treat the damn thing like Quest for Karn. Removed on premise of being poorly written and incessantly contradicting primary sources.

Quote:
I would go with the most thorough approach and first clarify why it erases its own plot from canon anyway (if that's actually what happens) and then make a list of individual points that have been contradicted by other sources since, just to be safe. I'll just start with the one that vronos already shared. Can someone give me a sentence or two roughly explaining why ToM erases itself that I can put on the list?

In the end, Tezzeret uses clockworking to basically find an alternate timeline where the events of the book didn't happen and make that reality. But you know exactly how much sense that makes with bloody Tarkir.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:41 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
Your best bet is to chase that back through Liliana. She raised Mikaeus specifically because he knew what happened.
Yup, I'm at it, but so far I've only found a source that says he knew, but doesn't mention he witnessed the battle. I'll keep looking for the original source of that, but for now I'll just dump a link to the one I've got here so we have a starting point at least: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/ar ... 2012-04-09

Innistrad block not having proper stories is vexing on more than one level...

Barinellos wrote:
Quote:
vronos wrote:
Ravnica
Writing Errors
- [8/2012] In Ravnica, Then and Now, Jace's time spent leading the Ravnican cell of the Consortium (including his encounter with Garruk) was unintentionally omitted by the author.
Hm, yeah, agreed, this seems to have been unintentional. I'm pretty sure there are later sources that still acknowledge the parts omitted in the article, right?

If you want to be technical, this kinda counts as an unretcon since Jace abandoned the Consortium at the end of AoA, so when he turned up in Garruk's quest, it took most of us by surprise to the point Brady had to step in with 'ghost canon' as he put it.
Yes, but are we sure the Garruk parts and even the Consortium cell parts don't come up anywhere else? Is Jace taking over the remnants of the cell ever mentioned in The Secretist, for example?

Barinellos wrote:
Quote:
It's awsome that the Test of Metal discussion I wanted to instigate eventually just happened without my doing.
I hate that book. It was inevitable.
Sometimes, hate is all a Magic storyline fan has left...

Barinellos wrote:
Quote:
Well then, how do we approach ToM? I've always stayed away from that book precisely because of the reputation it has, but I guess it should probably get its own sub-section on the list, just like what I did with Magic Origins.
Treat the damn thing like Quest for Karn. Removed on premise of being poorly written and incessantly contradicting primary sources.
Sure, but it can't harm to list the point that have been explicitly contradicted.


Barinellos wrote:
In the end, Tezzeret uses clockworking to basically find an alternate timeline where the events of the book didn't happen and make that reality. But you know exactly how much sense that makes with bloody Tarkir.
Yeah, I know exactly how much sense that makes with bloody Tarkir... :( (see also: hate). I have a feeling (or call it hope) that they don't want the mere existence of Clockworking to be canon either, so that would mean ToM is even more removed from canon than it removes itself already, but we might never know for sure. Anyway, I'll just put what you said about self-removing on the list and collect additional points that contradict it. Some of the stuff established in that book would probably be true in all alternate timelines if it hadn't been explicitly contradicted (e.g. how to make etherium), so there must be more to it than just 'Clockworking did it'.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:50 pm 
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Never mind, something weird just happened with my posts. It should be fine again, though.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:36 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
Quote:
Hm, yeah, agreed, this seems to have been unintentional. I'm pretty sure there are later sources that still acknowledge the parts omitted in the article, right?

If you want to be technical, this kinda counts as an unretcon since Jace abandoned the Consortium at the end of AoA, so when he turned up in Garruk's quest, it took most of us by surprise to the point Brady had to step in with 'ghost canon' as he put it.
Yes, but are we sure the Garruk parts and even the Consortium cell parts don't come up anywhere else? Is Jace taking over the remnants of the cell ever mentioned in The Secretist, for example?

Nope.
As far as the Secretist is concerned, Jace followed through on his plan to take a hike.
The only reason he ever had to join the Consortium was to be pointed at the Dragon Scroll and get jumped into the Zendikar plot. Which, for the record, has NEVER MADE SENSE.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:28 pm 
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Barinellos wrote:
The only reason he ever had to join the Consortium was to be pointed at the Dragon Scroll and get jumped into the Zendikar plot. Which, for the record, has NEVER MADE SENSE.

But it was all a part of Bolas's scheme for power, his master plan!! ;) ;) ;)
To release the Eldrazi titans!
Because . . . he's evil and he had the opportunity to since he killed Ugin! Over a thousand years ago. Ugin was his rival!
And Ugin was his rival because Ugin was an elder dragon . . . god, why do you all need so many details.
"Don't worry, it'll all make sense in 8 years! Or not."

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 Post subject: Re: List of Retcons
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:09 am 
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You should totally rename this thread to Uncharted Retcons.


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