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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 7:06 pm 
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Also, Barinellos, I think you're famous now. Kinda. For one evening.

...I'll need more info.

I don't/can't actually listen to any of the podcasts.
I've direly desired transcripts in the past few weeks.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 7:14 pm 
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They answer your Hazezon Tamar question AND your Crovax/Windgrace question.

The first one boils down to "There were probably several people with the same name" and "some random references might just be continuity errors" (Legends I takes place about 400 years after the Ice Age, though, but that one was clear anyway).

And there is no connection between Crovax and Lord Windgrace, it was simply a baseless fan myth that came up at some point for some reason.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 1:17 am 
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I just noticed something interesting in one (well, two) of the maps in Ethan's cartography article:
Spoiler


There is a spot labelled "Duler Sanctum" on the island of Lat-Nam! Looks like the Lat-Nam parts in the Greensleeves trilogy are (more or less) canon after all? I find that implication kinda weird because that's pretty hard to square with later appearances of Lat-Nam (I know Squirle tried to make it work, but I think that part was a bit forced). It's... interesting, though, and it would line up with the flavour text on Sage of Lat-Nam. I hope we'll learn one day what became of Greensleeves after the third book...

And I guess the Tolarian Academy at Lat-Nam is in the same location as the original School at Lat-Nam? That's pretty cool.


Lat-Nam's history is pretty convoluted. Obviously a few details found in the Greensleeves books can't possibly be true, but I came up with a plausible explanation that saved 95% of everything. A few months later, Squirle's article came to the same conclusions.

And yes, the Academy at Lat-Nam is at the original site of the school headed by Drafna and Hurkyl, built over that mosaic seal that Greensleeves found.

Aaaah, so much cool stuff! Drop what you're doing and listen to the new podcast! It's so good I'm allowed to triple-post!

http://media.wizards.com/2018/podcasts/ ... 8axGQ5.mp3

Turns out they didn't retcon a single thing and instead decided to go the awesome route and tie everything together. They even mention the Greensleeves thing I brought up above.


I mean, we retconned a few things. We set The Prodigal Sorcerer on Otaria, for instance. But yeah, the general policy was, "Everything happened the way the old sources said they happened. We get to decide how things have changed since those events, and how characters from the present perceive those events." So for example Kelly changed Benalia's ludicrous societal structure, not by reconning it away, but by having it evolve into its current shape. We didn't retcon Akroma into a Serra Angel, but the Serra Worshipers have erroneously incorporated her into their religion.

Quote:
Seriously, I love you guys! :cloud9:


Awww! The whole worldbuilding team really did try to make something that would please the old guard vorthoses. We drilled in to find what was appealing about the old continuity and incorporate it into the reclaimed setting.

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So sad that Kelly doesn't work at Wizards anymore... :cry:


:cry: :cry: :cry:


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 3:19 pm 
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WotC_Ethan wrote:
Lat-Nam's history is pretty convoluted. Obviously a few details found in the Greensleeves books can't possibly be true, but I came up with a plausible explanation that saved 95% of everything. A few months later, Squirle's article came to the same conclusions.
Personally, I always figured the Greensleeves/Lat-Nam/Duler Angel parts belonged to the 5% that are best forgotten about, but it's not like we'll have to figure out for certain what was "actually" the deal with that. I think Squirle's article on Lat-Nam is pretty clever and mostly plausible, it's just a matter of how far you're willing to reach with some points. But it certainly is awesome to see the approach to continuity be on the more inclusive end of the spectrum for once! :)

WotC_Ethan wrote:
And yes, the Academy at Lat-Nam is at the original site of the school headed by Drafna and Hurkyl, built over that mosaic seal that Greensleeves found.
I was going to say "I wonder which legends the mosaic actually depicts" (because IIRC, there were some anachronisms in the mosaic in Final Sacrifice that shouldn't have been there), but then it hit me that maybe it's a magical mosaic that keeps updating itself and has new legends and scenes fom history appear once in a while. Or maybe it shows different things to different people, depending on who's looking at it. The art department could certainly do cool things with that mosaic if it ever shows up in a a card set ;)

WotC_Ethan wrote:
I mean, we retconned a few things. We set The Prodigal Sorcerer on Otaria, for instance. But yeah, the general policy was, "Everything happened the way the old sources said they happened. We get to decide how things have changed since those events, and how characters from the present perceive those events." So for example Kelly changed Benalia's ludicrous societal structure, not by reconning it away, but by having it evolve into its current shape. We didn't retcon Akroma into a Serra Angel, but the Serra Worshipers have erroneously incorporated her into their religion.
I was mostly just talking about the Serra and Benalia related things in the podcast, but even beyond that, I wouldn't really call putting Tamingazin on Otaria a retcon in the actual sense (i.e. a hard continuity break). At least I'm pretty sure it's possible for both the Otaria novels and The Prodigal Sorcerer to have happened exactly as it says in the books even if they happen on the same continent. You only retconned the old map of Otaria, but since you brought it in line with what was on the globe all along, you could even argue you actually un-retconned it and thus cleaned it up. [Note to self: I never though the day would come when a Wizards employee says they retconned a thing and I argue that they actually didn't...] And as to the in-universe changes, sure, that's just the normal thing to do. Dominaria has had A LOT of those in the past after all. Are there any societal changes in Benalia beyond religion that you can tell us more about?

WotC_Ethan wrote:
Awww! The whole worldbuilding team really did try to make something that would please the old guard vorthoses.
As far as I'm concerned, they suceeded. <3 Sure, everyone has a couple of things they would have done differently, but on the whole, it has exceeded my expectations. I think the only thing that went seriously wrong in terms of worldbuilding are the Cabal (compared to the original ones), but I guess we'll hear about that next week. If you guys keep up this level of attention to detail and continuity (and cool card design I guess), this is a Dominaria that I'd LOVE to return to. I never agreed with the notion that Dominaria needs a 'core identity' to be brought back, but if the 'history plane' hat is what keeps it safe from the onslaught of retcons, inconsistencies and poor continuity we normally see in Magic these days, then getting an 'identity' is the best thing that ever happened to it. :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:11 pm 
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The final episode of the podcast is up!

http://media.wizards.com/2018/podcasts/ ... j9mnR2.mp3

I'm afraid it doesn't really clarify why the new Cabal turned out so lame and lost everything that made them cool once. :bored: And the part about Belzenlok's origins is nice and all, but it would have belonged in the story (it's the story that's to blame here, though, not the podcast).

The attention to detail that went into reconciling Otaria and Tamingazin is great, though! Kudos for checking the novels so carefully and trying to keep track of everything. See? Not a retcon. All things considered, it was a great decision that makes both parts of the setting more interesting. :thumbsup:


And suddenly...

"Pavor Nocturnus asks:" :blush:

Spoiler

And of course I have that map of Dominaria as my wallpaper on my laptop, so that came in handy while listening.

That was awesome guys, thanks a lot! And yes, there needs to be more of this the next time we see Dominaria! :D

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Tell why Truth must fight with Falsehood, and why Truth will always win."
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 2:43 pm 
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Hmmm... interesting. I forgot about the Scathe reference in Whispering Woods. The fact that Scathe doesn't appear on the Aerona map that Pete and Tom made back in the 90's suggests that it almost certainly isn't a place in Aerona, at the very least.

There were lots of forum posts by Pete, Scott McGough, Brady, etc. We read whatever ones we could find, and many of them informed our decisions. (Some of McG's posts got us thinking about making a new Umezawa, for instance.) However, forum posts aren't canon. When confronted with a canon source (Shadow Mage) saying one thing about Upper Videnth and a non-canon source (Pete's forum posts made years after he stopped working at WotC) saying another, it was clear which was the correct version to go with.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 3:13 pm 
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Thank you Ethan for this Herculean feat of worldbuilding! The fact that the thread has gone into quite obscure novels like Greensleeves is a testament to how thorough your work has been. From your work on commander 2014 and theros forward you have been nothing but a stalward representative of the Vorthos community.

I so hoped to learn a bit more on Belzenlok....with only two stories to go i fear there won't be much room to develop him to be more than a token villain, which is a shame.


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:33 am 
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WotC_Ethan wrote:
There were lots of forum posts by Pete, Scott McGough, Brady, etc. We read whatever ones we could find, and many of them informed our decisions. (Some of McG's posts got us thinking about making a new Umezawa, for instance.) However, forum posts aren't canon. When confronted with a canon source (Shadow Mage) saying one thing about Upper Videnth and a non-canon source (Pete's forum posts made years after he stopped working at WotC) saying another, it was clear which was the correct version to go with.
That's perfectly fair, I wasn't really aware that his post clashed with the information in the comics. It's awesome that you considered all those old forum posts in your research, btw.

On another geography-related note, I remembered a reference to a place in Benalia in the Mercadian Masques novel, and I figured it might be easy to overlook because the novel isn't set on Dominaria, so I looked it up to share with you: The great market town of Triven Fralli in Benalia had always seemed to Gerrard a circuslike experience. (pp. 48-49). I really couldn't tell you if that name is referenced in another source, and it's not in the wiki either, so just in case this is remotely helpful to anyone on the worldbuilding team in any way, here it is.

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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 12:58 pm 
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Is there a canonical reason why Phyrexia didn't do much to Otaria during their invasion? I always assumed it was "because it was far away," but of course we now know it isn't *that* far away. And I guess not invading somewhere because it's far away doesn't make a lot of sense anyway when you are overlaying one whole planet with another.


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 8:36 pm 
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I had the impression it was far away from anything of strategic value.

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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:09 am 
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New headcanon: Timberland Ruins and Bog Wreckage are totally the ruins of Suderbod.

Also, I like to think that the design of those buildings in New Benalia might have been inspired by the stories of the Roof of Lights in Oneah. I'm sure that place would have appealed to the Benalkin. Add that to the fact that the number seven played an important role in both Benalia and Oneah, albeit for different reasons.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:42 am 
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Quote:
todoesgraciosocuandolohacehitler asked:
Hey, Mark! Today's my birthday and I actually remembered to write in. Could I get any cool Magic trivia you haven't had chance to share yet? If not, that's all right, you already gave me Unhinged and Dominaria. Thank you!

markrosewater said:
The card design that I made for Dominaria that I was the saddest to see cut was a Saga I made about Liliana’s story.

Happy Birthday!

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:07 am 
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Cool, I would have loved to see that. And I think it's safe to assume that it would have been called 'The Fall of the House of Vess'..?

I hope they still have the creative and mechanical space to keep pumping out new Sagas for a while, and I hope they save it all for more Dominaria. For starters, maybe they could include some multi-colour ones next time, that should open up some space.

What kind of Sagas would you like to see next time? Here are some suggestions from the top of my head:

- 'Love Song of Night and Day' (preferably enemy-coloured pair, like :w::r: maybe)
- 'The Fall of Oneah' (or maybe go hard and call it 'Ashes of the Sun', both would be fine)
- 'The Heresy of Hurloon' (yes, I really love Ashes of the Sun, in case that wasn't obvious)
- 'Champion's Trial' (or whatever Tetsuo defeating Bolas would be called)
- 'Ith's Imprisonment' (Ith being captured, Ith being trapped in the cage, Ith being freed with a big bang)
- 'Greensleeves' Crusade'
- 'Serra's Sacrifice'
- some stuff that happened on Corondor

Edit: I wonder whether double-faced Sagas could be an option at some point. Might be overkill, though, unless one side isn't a Saga.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:27 am 
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Edit: I wonder whether double-faced Sagas could be an option at some point. Might be overkill, though, unless one side isn't a Saga.

Perhaps a Legendary Creature that transforms into a Saga when it dies?

EDIT: Or a PW. "Urza, Planeswalker" with an ultimate to transform, becoming "Urza's Saga"

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:31 am 
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Edit: I wonder whether double-faced Sagas could be an option at some point. Might be overkill, though, unless one side isn't a Saga.

Perhaps a Legendary Creature that transforms into a Saga when it dies?
Yeah, or maybe an artifact representing a scroll that you can 'open' to invoke the story within. Or a card that starts out as a Saga and then turns into a land or an artifact that you 'discovered' in the final chapter, like Ixalan's DFC lands or Zendikar's Quests that reward you for going through them.

EDIT: Or a PW. "Urza, Planeswalker" with an ultimate to transform, becoming "Urza's Saga"
:roll:

In all honesty, though, I expect there'll probably be an Urza PW card in C18.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:13 pm 
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I want a young Urza creature, to match the Mishra we got in Time Spiral.

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