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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Well, but remember what Ethan said about history and worldbuilding: They decided how certain events would be remembered by people on Dominaria, but that doesn't mean all in-universe notions about history are correct (like Akroma being a Serra Angel or Serra having guided Gerrard's hand in defeating Yawgmoth). The characters who bring up Piru in the story certainly don't sound like they have much of a clue about the topic, and how could they? Not that I feel strongly about Piru's status one way or another, but I don't think those new claims prove or disprove anything either.

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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:00 pm 
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Piru was a Lesser Elder Dragon though, wasn't she? Like, there were the five Elders, and their offspring were Lesser Elders, and then the rest got turned into Elder Wurms or otherwise sired dragons across the multiverse yeah?

So it would make sense that people after a few thousand years would forget that minor detail, since Bolas is the only survivor.

And Ugin, even if he had "lived" through the Elder Dragon War, wasn't really ALIVE since he was a spirit.

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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:14 pm 
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Whether Piru was a sixth true Elder or a Lesser Elder has been one of the long-unanswered questions of M:tG Lore. Sources disagree.

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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:42 am 
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Quote:
sliferthecanadian asked:
Hey Mark, I had a question about the story of M19. From the Weekly MTG Stream, you guys talked about the Elder Dragons will have a part in the story, but I was wondering which Elder Dragons you guys were talking about, the Elder Dragons from Dominia (Bolas, Palladia-Mors, etc.) or the ones from Tarkir (Atarka, Dromoka, etc.)?

markrosewater said:
The ones from Legends - the original Elder Dragon Legends.

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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:59 am 
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The fact that they have to make that distinction, and the fact that they are clearly confusing people with those terms, goes to show exactly why people (including myself) were upset about the use of "Elder Dragon" as a type for the Tarkir dragons in the first place. It was a bad call then, and remains a bad call now when they want to call back to a part of Magic's storyline that is actually pretty cool. I absolutely hate the fact that they can't say "Elder Dragon" anymore and evoke the feelings that that term used to conjure in me, but instead evoke feelings of confusion and frustration.


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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:42 am 
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On a completely different note: Time to re-aquatint yourselves with Vivian!

Quote:
Just ahead of the release of the highly anticipated Core 2019 set, Magic: The Gathering is giving Mary Sue readers an exclusive look at a brand new character.

Meet Green Planeswalker Vivien Reid.

Image

Born on Skalla, Vivien is part of a tribe of rangers and druids known as the Smaragdi, who protect the wilds of that plane from the growing destructive civilization.

Vivien has a special bond with the animals of the forest, which manifests in her Arkbow. Wizards of the Coast Principal Game Designer Jenna Helland explained to me, “The essence of every creature from Skalla is contained in that bow, and those creatures live on through Vivien. Now that she’s a Planeswalker, she can also capture the essences of creatures on other worlds (but only under specific circumstances). Vivien is a fierce protector of all creatures, of wild places, and of anyone who is threatened by a force greater than them.”

Image

Vivien is the first Green Planeswalker to be introduced since 2009. “In 2017, there was a small team of art directors, concept artists, and writers who were tasked with creating a new green Planeswalker who mechanically cared about creatures,” says Helland. “Beyond green-aligned and creature-centric, our goal was to hit an archetype that we were missing in green. So Vivien became our bow-carrying, animal-loving ranger. Because she first debuted in M19, we wanted a character who could have a connection to Nicol Bolas, and that’s why we created the backstory about the destruction of Skalla.”

Check out Vivien Reid’s official card:

Spoiler


And Vivien Reid’s Invocation:

Spoiler


Core Set 2019 is set to be released on July 13th. It will feature the notorious evil elder dragon Nicol Bolas, and all five Planeswalkers in the set, Ajani, Tezzeret, Liliana, Sarkhan, and Vivien, have come into contact with him and been “profoundly affected by his machinations.” Helland promises it’s a fun theme for the set.

Core Set 2019 is said to be a great entry point for new or lapsed players. If you want to learn more about Planeswalkers, Helland suggests you check out the expansive collection of web fiction at mtgstory.com. Towards the end of the summer, a new story dedicated to Vivien Reid will be introduced, written by “one of the newest, best fantasy writers around.”

What say you Magic fans? What do you think of this new Planeswalker?

(images: Wizards of the Coast)

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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:52 am 
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Smaragdi, eh? Were there also tribes known as Perli, Saphiri, Gagati, and Rubini? :P

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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:08 pm 
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TPmanW wrote:
Article just makes it sound like we're finally getting the full scoop on the Ugin/Bolas conflict. I wouldn't mind finding out more about Tarkir's deal either. What's with the dragon storms for starters?
Thanks for linking to that site by the way. It's full of good stuff.
#ImTHeOne GuyWithoutAProblemWithTarkir
Fear not! There are at least two!

As for Tarkir's Elder Dragons, the single best argument for them is Creative took the opportunity offered there to actually explore and establish what "Elder" means, and since then they have actually used it (consistently, too!) instead of letting it languish in dust, obscurity, and undefined pointlessness.

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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:09 pm 
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astarael7 wrote:
As for Tarkir's Elder Dragons, the single best argument for them is Creative took the opportunity offered there to actually explore and establish what "Elder" means, and since then they have actually used it (consistently, too!) instead of letting it languish in dust, obscurity, and undefined pointlessness.

So your best argument for Tarkir Elder Dragons is that Wizards had an opportunity to do something and did. Great. Well, they had an opportunity to take the paper that idea was written on, crumble it up, set it on fire, and forget they ever mentioned it. Sadly, they didn't take that opportunity, because apparently that would have been, according to your logic, the best reason not to include them.

The Tarkir Elder Dragons were an answer to a question that nobody was asking. Even if I grant the premise that they somehow "explore and establish" what an Elder is (which I don't, by the way), who was asking? What subset of Magic players were wondering "What exactly is an Elder?" Now, a question that the Vorthos community HAS been asking for a long time is "What is an Elder Dragon?" We've heard the term for a long time, and they had an established yet poorly defined history. We knew that Nicol Bolas was one, as were Chromium, Arcades Sabboth, Palladia-Mors, and Vaevictis Asmadi. But Tarkir didn't answer, explore, or establish anything about them. All it did was slap the term on a bunch of dragons created through a convoluted, illogical, insulting time travel story that has nothing to do with anything. Applying that term to the Tarkir dragons just inserted confusion and uncertainty as to what that term means so that now, it means nothing. If Wizards had released a statement pre-Tarkir that said that their next Core Set would feature the story of the Elder Dragons, I would have been pumped.

I would have been pumped because the Elder Dragons, the real ****ing Elder Dragons, are a huge part of the reason I ever got involved in Magic's storylines. The five cards were some of my early flavor favorites, and it was an attempt to find information about the Elder Dragon Wars that first led me to cross over from YMTC into the old Art & Flavor board on the mothership. What little story we could piece together was full of mystery, intrigue, magic. They hinted at a grandiose story that was bigger than the game itself, the slightest glimpse at a Multiverse that was unfathomably massive, that had innumerable stories to tell over a variety of worlds too vast and varied to be imagined. The Tarkir Dragons not only do none of that, but they restrict the ability of the real Elder Dragons to do it anymore.

And when you think about it, that makes sense. It fits into Creative's apparent plan to constrict rather than expand the Multiverse. They want everything connected by neat little lines of plot connections so that the Multiverse, while once a place of infinite possibilities, feels like a gated community. Everybody knows everybody, and there are only so many places you are allowed to go. What's on the other side of the Gate? Doesn't matter; it's not safe there, so we can't go. So of course Creative had to neuter the real Elder Dragons. They were dangerous. They got people thinking of possibilities. It's like this new Vivien 'walker. Overall, I like her, but of course, she HAD to be connected to Bolas. After all, there certainly can't be a 'walker out there who hasn't met, interacted with, or faced the consequences of another 'walker (even though the odds are that MOST 'walkers have never met or heard of any others).

I have, or had, a very strong personal connection to the story of the Elder Dragons and their war, and because of that, I can only think of the Tarkir dragons in one way. It's like I went to Wizard's Creative department and asked them what it meant to be an Elder Dragon. And, in response, they spit in my face. They're like a bully on the beach, and what I've built up in my imagination is a sand castle. And when I asked my question, they came over, kicked over my sand castle, stomped on it, and rubbed the sand into my hair. Then they said, "Got any other questions we can answer? No? Good."

Tarkir Elder Dragons did not have to happen. There were plenty of other options for what to call them, if they even had to exist at all. Which they didn't, because Dragons of Tarkir should have never happened.


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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:23 pm 
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I'm just hoping with core 2019 being "about" the true elders that we get a new cycle for them, mechanically updated creature printings of Nicol Bolas, Arcades Sabboth, Palladia-Mors, Vaevictis Asmadi, and Chromium. True, they'd all need titles now (except Chromium who could get his old name of Chromium Rhuell). I'd even take an uneven cycle with Bolas as a PW with "Can be your commander". Because it would be nice to see the real five back in action and able to kick ass and not be outclassed by four-mana mythics or stuff like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:26 pm 
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Skipping the debate for now, oh good gods, why would you give the Mary Sue a exclusive?!
That site is an absolute rag! Some of the worst "journalism" in the modern landscape.

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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:31 pm 
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I wonder if it would be interesting to find out that Tarkir was some sort of stronghold world of one of the four non-Bolas Elder Dragons and if both Ugin and the Dragon Storms were a creation of that particular Elder. Ugin then sparks up into 'Walker status at some point (likely when he finds out his progenitor was slain by Bolas), and begins scouring the Multiverse looking for ways to eliminate or neutralize Bolas in his prime. Ugin makes some "friends" along the way and then gets distracted for a while when his research clues him in on the whole Eldrazi thing....because while Bolas can just take over worlds (and occasionally shatter them), the Eldrazi devour them...and there are three of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:38 pm 
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astarael7 wrote:
TPmanW wrote:
Article just makes it sound like we're finally getting the full scoop on the Ugin/Bolas conflict. I wouldn't mind finding out more about Tarkir's deal either. What's with the dragon storms for starters?
Thanks for linking to that site by the way. It's full of good stuff.
#ImTHeOne GuyWithoutAProblemWithTarkir
Fear not! There are at least two!

As for Tarkir's Elder Dragons, the single best argument for them is Creative took the opportunity offered there to actually explore and establish what "Elder" means, and since then they have actually used it (consistently, too!) instead of letting it languish in dust, obscurity, and undefined pointlessness.

Except of course that what they've defined it to mean is "old" while the previous elder dragons are, in fact, a separate species entirely that represent an earlier evolutionary path.
So, not terribly consistent.

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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:43 pm 
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Yeah, the Tarkir Elders just feel like the long-lived (and oft reincarnated) Dominaria Primevals.

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magicpablo666 wrote:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!"


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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:57 pm 
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With that description I just wanna call Vivien She-Garruk... I was hoping for more to differentiate her in her power set.

On a positive side, it makes me want to say ga-RUHK instead of Gerrik.


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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:49 pm 
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With that description I just wanna call Vivien She-Garruk... I was hoping for more to differentiate her in her power set.

I mean, that's green's problem.
It's a philosophical deep color strangled out by its surface details.
The more interesting parts of green are too abstract to splash on a character.

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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:29 pm 
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Knight Otu wrote:
Perli, Saphiri, Gagati, and Rubini? :P


This I get

Knight Otu wrote:
Smaragdi, eh?


This pun I am missing


Also I totally called Vivien being a Garruk replacement

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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:44 am 
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Could've made a villain with some valid points on fatalism but no, had to be another hippie archetype.

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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:24 pm 
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LilyStorm wrote:
Knight Otu wrote:
Smaragdi, eh?


This pun I am missing


Smaragd is German for emerald.

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 Post subject: Re: Core Set 2019 Flavor
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:51 pm 
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Knight Otu wrote:
LilyStorm wrote:
Knight Otu wrote:
Smaragdi, eh?


This pun I am missing


Smaragd is German for emerald.


Dang I thought it was some steven universe pun I was missing

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