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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:19 pm 
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@Arcades: Did Doug indicate the the Tarkir lords would be considered Elders throughout the multiverse, or is it strictly Elder in Tarkir parlance? My stance has been that both groups are Elder Dragons. That is what Doug tells us? We do have to consider that while both are Elders, they come from different areas of the multiverse and totally different sources. The main similarity is that both are the lords of their respective groups of dragons. So both sets of Elders are the strongest of their respective species.

To clarify my points on Word of God: As a reader it means nothing to me. If it is something worth mentioning, it will appear in the actual stories.

Fanfiction: This is a term I apply to the various tie-in books, be they Magic, Dragonlance, Eberron, the Forgotten Realms. There is usually a touch a quality control or uniqueness you don't see in online fanfiction that elevate some of these to the level of light afternoon entertainment.

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"...the historians will write of our suffering, and they will speak of it as the suffering of those who served the Crippled God. As something … fitting. And for our seeming fanaticism they will dismiss all that we were, and think only of what we achieved. Or failed to achieve.

And in so doing, they will miss the whole **** point.”


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:04 pm 
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OK, I'm beginning to see where some of this confusing is coming from. You're using the word fanfiction very differently from everyone else here, so we're misunderstanding you.

Usually, fanfic means the sort of thing we're writing at the M:EM. Tie-in-novels are not considered "fanfiction" by anyone else, in any fan community I've ever seen, nor on TV Tropes. I think you're the only person who uses "fanfiction" that way. So using the word that way is just confusing everyone else.

Again, if you don't consider the novels part of your concept of what's canon, that's entirely reasonable, but because you use words in the opposite way from other English speakers here, nothing you say will be understood and you'll look like you have no clue what you're talking about. I think what you're saying about your own preferred subset of actual canon is what most people call "headcanon." (Then when there's a large group of fans who all share the same headcanon, they start calling it fanon.)

I sympathise with feeling misunderstood because sometimes I accidentally use words differently from how everyone else (or at least, everyone neurotypical) uses them without even realizing I'm doing it, and then get very frustrated by the communciation problems this causes me.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:16 pm 
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I do take the books as canon, but I rank media tie-in books as a notch above the fanfiction you find online. Both of these fictions are still beholden to someone else's world, setting, or intellectual property. They are bound by more restrictions than original series where the author has the license to pursue whatever themes or ideas they wish. This use of the term fanfiction is one I brought over from a few other forums I frequent.

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"...the historians will write of our suffering, and they will speak of it as the suffering of those who served the Crippled God. As something … fitting. And for our seeming fanaticism they will dismiss all that we were, and think only of what we achieved. Or failed to achieve.

And in so doing, they will miss the whole **** point.”


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:22 pm 
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Arcades, I think your point about setting the bar low is good... I don't think there's been a lot of like... sustained criticism of content for quite a while. We're getting better about bringing the lore seeking aspect back, when that kinda went away for a while--I'm really glad you and Squirle are around now tracking stuff down because for a while me and Barinellos were kind of the only people really focussed on sort of storage and retrieval stuff--but yeah I think we could do more like... well... engaging with the stories.

Things have been so in flux in the last few years though it's been hard to reach any kind of stable ground for that conversation to happen. There's that stability thing again, I guess.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:40 pm 
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I was old before this world was even born. I watched my brothers rule for a thousand years until little worms like you overcame them. But I am not my brothers. I am older than they are, greater. I have devoured stars and shattered worlds. I have sired whole races, populated entire planes, and then hunted them to extinction for my amusement. I have bathed in the blood of gods and used their bones to build my nest.“I am the mind-ripper, the deathbringer, the winged dark that terrifies your dreams. I was the first to witness the sun rise on this world, and I will be the last to watch it set for the final time. I have no beginning and no end. I have always been, and I shall always be. My name is the foundation of all that is, and those who hear it will obey or become as nothing … I am Nicol Bolas … Planeswalker, elder dragon, the oldest and most powerful being that has ever or shall ever exist"

Well, I guess I'm going to go buy the Legends cycle now.

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*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:47 pm 
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TPmanW wrote:
I was old before this world was even born. I watched my brothers rule for a thousand years until little worms like you overcame them. But I am not my brothers. I am older than they are, greater. I have devoured stars and shattered worlds. I have sired whole races, populated entire planes, and then hunted them to extinction for my amusement. I have bathed in the blood of gods and used their bones to build my nest.“I am the mind-ripper, the deathbringer, the winged dark that terrifies your dreams. I was the first to witness the sun rise on this world, and I will be the last to watch it set for the final time. I have no beginning and no end. I have always been, and I shall always be. My name is the foundation of all that is, and those who hear it will obey or become as nothing … I am Nicol Bolas … Planeswalker, elder dragon, the oldest and most powerful being that has ever or shall ever exist"

Well, I guess I'm going to go buy the Legends cycle now.


This is so beautiful I almost cried. I might have to get it too.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:49 pm 
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TPmanW wrote:
Well, I guess I'm going to go buy the Legends cycle now.

And people wonder why I put such a premium on Bolas and his claims.

Well... that's why.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:57 pm 
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If magic doesn't end with Bolas getting his way I will be very sad.

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altimis wrote:
I never take anytihng Lily says seriously, except for when I take it personally. Then it's personal.
WotC_Ethan wrote:
People, buy more stuff.
#WotCstaff
Spoiler

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:59 pm 
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If Bolas is so great, then why'd he end up dead on a beach so many times?

...

...

...

KIDDING! KIDDING! PLEASE DON'T SMITE ME!!!!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:14 pm 
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It's a pretty good series. Mine are long overdue for a replacement.

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"...the historians will write of our suffering, and they will speak of it as the suffering of those who served the Crippled God. As something … fitting. And for our seeming fanaticism they will dismiss all that we were, and think only of what we achieved. Or failed to achieve.

And in so doing, they will miss the whole **** point.”


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:54 pm 
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Not sure if this will be looked on as insignificant, in a hated way, or possibly to not put as much stock into some older external promotions (such as possibly calendars)

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/113369817413/doug-didnt-the-duels-2012-intro-cinematic-say#notes

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The Duels 2012 intro video is cool-looking, but it is not, and never was, canon. It was made without the input of the Creative Team, and all the dialogue and events in it are not considered true in the story. We’re sorry that it causes confusion, and it’s awkward that it’s out there that way, but that’s where we are.

(That trailer resulted in a bunch of changes for how video trailers were made here at Wizards. Guidance of the Magic storyline across different media was kind of… in disarray at the time. We’re in a much better place now.)

Gideon’s backstory in Magic Origins will build on what’s said in other sources, such as the novel The Purifying Fire.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:02 pm 
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Not sure if this will be looked on as insignificant, in a hated way, or possibly to not put as much stock into some older external promotions (such as possibly calendars)

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/113369817413/doug-didnt-the-duels-2012-intro-cinematic-say#notes

Quote:
The Duels 2012 intro video is cool-looking, but it is not, and never was, canon. It was made without the input of the Creative Team, and all the dialogue and events in it are not considered true in the story. We’re sorry that it causes confusion, and it’s awkward that it’s out there that way, but that’s where we are.

(That trailer resulted in a bunch of changes for how video trailers were made here at Wizards. Guidance of the Magic storyline across different media was kind of… in disarray at the time. We’re in a much better place now.)

Gideon’s backstory in Magic Origins will build on what’s said in other sources, such as the novel The Purifying Fire.

Yeah, I saw that. Basically, I just think it's a poor way to run a business/franchise. Honestly, I've never really considered DotP as canon, and frankly it would have been less confusing if they had just kept it that way. Because by having some of the games canon and some not, it just creates a great deal of confusion.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:46 pm 
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It's very relevant, but not really new. With the many different story outlets we've had in the past we've gotten pretty used to weighing our sources. Revisionist sources trump pre-revisionist ones (and in general, newer sources trump older ones), books and comics trump Duelist articles and calendars, published sources trump what authors said on fora (or not, depending on the case), etc. The main problem is that with the oldest information it has become unclear where a lot of information originally came from. If we imagine "canon" as a ladder, the calendars are probably one of the last rungs before we get to "statements MaRo made on his tumbrl" and "pure fanon", but we can't simply strike them from canon as some stuff from them have been picked up on. Dougs comments and Nicol Bolas' bio on the mothership show that the Elder Dragon War is still considered canon, for example. Or look at Segovia being small. That originated in a calendar as well, but was clearly referenced in Planechase.

@Raven: It is a poor way of running a franchise, if you put a lot of stock on storyline. Unfortunately WotC has gone through a couple of times when storyline had a very low priority. Luckily its importance is currently on the upswing, and Doug's comment shows that they've learner from the DotP 2012 mistake. I don't think they should've kept all the DotP games out of canon because of a mistake made with the 2012 edition though. A lot of new players are coming into the game via those, so having them have an alternate canon would've only created more problems. And having them not have a story at all is not an option either. Story makes a game far more interesting, plus WotC wants to introduce their flagship characters to new players.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:08 pm 
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I basically second everything Squirle said.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:20 pm 
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Raven, just be glad you weren't a Star Wars fan before Disney bought it.

There were like, six levels of canon. That might end up being the route MTG has to take, unless WotC decides to star laying down the facts on what is and isn't canon (a series separate of Uncharted Realms to clear up the pre-Mending storylines [Looking at you, Jeska/Karona]) Would really be ideal.

Maybe Somebody with writing talent should contact Doug about doing it for WotC? Probably would go nowhere, but if he/WotC agreed it would be a nice notch in your resume/CV.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:20 pm 
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Raven, just be glad you weren't a Star Wars fan before Disney bought it.

There were like, six levels of canon. That might end up being the route MTG has to take, unless WotC decides to star laying down the facts on what is and isn't canon (a series separate of Uncharted Realms to clear up the pre-Mending storylines [Looking at you, Jeska/Karona]) Would really be ideal.

Maybe Somebody with writing talent should contact Doug about doing it for WotC? Probably would go nowhere, but if he/WotC agreed it would be a nice notch in your resume/CV.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:30 pm 
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I've been a Star Wars fan since I was a kid. Fortunately, while I'm probably more knowledgeable in it that an average person, I've never gone very far beyond the movies, so I'm certainly not fanatical. Disney owning it does bother me, but not as much as Disney owning Marvel does...


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:55 pm 
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Disney owning it does bother me, but not as much as Disney owning Marvel does...

You know, honestly, for as much doomsaying as was tossed around at that acquisition, and some really awful and eye rolling money grabs off of Disney's end of things, there hasn't been a lot of problems generated by that. Marvel has managed to maintain a really high level of its own control. Really, it's just Disney properties using Marvel characters more than anything that came out of that deal.

But there again, they're also about to launch Crisis on Infinite Marvels and potentially screw EVERYTHING up... Right at the same time DC is doing Convergence too. Things are going to get messy for a while here...

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:16 pm 
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Media consolidation is a serious thing to worry about, however. If just 3-4 companies end up owning 80% of all media in the West (totally made-up hypothetical numbers) that's a real problem.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:45 pm 
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Them dragons be elderly yo.


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