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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:21 am 
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TPmanW wrote:

My fatal mistake was opening up the creepy book and spending my dwindling hp to read further and further. I just really wanted to see what was in that book. I got the book and died against the 2nd boss in the next room.


Once you learn the game better the community treats this event as 13 hp loss to get the book or leave. There's not really a good option in between.

There are actually 3 possible books. The Enchiridion is the strongest in a random deck. The Necronomicon is the strongest in an Ironclad deck that can use it. And Nilry's Codex is the one that balances out the event. It's still really good, but it's so much worse than the other two it's not a close contest.

It is my opinion that you wouldn't have won the run if 13 hp for one of the books made you lose the 2nd boss fight. I think you made the right decision to take the book because if you had survived it would have significantly increased your chances of beating the 3rd and final floor.

Edit: I deliberately didn't spoil their effects, but for the above to make sense I do have to say that the Necronomicon is the only one with a downside and the only one that depends on deck composition. It's absolutely busted beyond all repair.... in the right deck.

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Last edited by mjack33 on Sun May 20, 2018 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:22 am 
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i think that tough bandages has great mileage in probably 90% of silent decks. Certainly its a lot less picky than cards liike dead branch and unceasing top. I could be underestimating the average defensive thoroughput of paper krane, but I feel like tough bandage probably exceeds it in most decks that have neither relic.

necronomicon in ironclad is also pretty insane though, yeah.

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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:36 am 
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Ragnarokio wrote:
i think that tough bandages has great mileage in probably 90% of silent decks. Certainly its a lot less picky than cards liike dead branch and unceasing top. I could be underestimating the average defensive thoroughput of paper krane, but I feel like tough bandage probably exceeds it in most decks that have neither relic.

necronomicon in ironclad is also pretty insane though, yeah.


The average strong attack for a 3rd boss on High Ascension is somewhere around ~40 - ~45. Paper Krane consistently saves you about 10+ life per boss attacking turn on average in the hardest fight (base Weakness is 25%, so I'm only counting 1/4th here).

In addition, you are saving ~10 - ~15 health on the Champion's Execute and the Automaton's Hyper Beam, which are the only moves that make those bosses threatening at all. Reducing those to less than 30 damage makes them significantly easier to live through.

For Tough Bandages to be on the same level in boss fights, you would have to discard 4 cards per turn. This requires a dedicated discard deck. It is much easier to keep weakness on the boss than it is to consistently discard 4 cards per turn.

Since I have somewhat based my rating on power level vs ease of use, I consider Paper Krane to be significantly stronger. The Necronomicon is harder to use but significantly stronger if you can use it, so that's stiff competition.

Edit:

To try to put it in a different perspective, I consider Paper Krane an insta-win in most good defensive Silent decks. You don't really think about it when playing the game, but if you take half off every enemy's attack most of them aren't doing anything that threatening even on the harder difficulties. The most threatening fights after picking it up tend to involve Status effects (Snecko, Chosen, Nemesis, etc.) or the Shapes in a non-poison deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:49 am 
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Which starting bonus would you choose on Ascension 7:

- Transform a Card
- Obtain 3 Random Potions
- Lose All Gold; Choose a Rare Card To Obtain
- Boss Relic Trade

If you want to go to a shop, the nearest shop is Trash -> Trash -> ? -> Trash -> Shop or Trash -> ? -> ? -> ? -> Shop. There is also a late shop on a good path right before the last bonfire on the first floor.

-------------------------------

I ended up paying 99 gold for Bullet Time. The other options were Corpse Explosion and Tactician. <- Don't let this affect your decision.

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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:59 am 
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i like boss relic trade on silent because i think most of the energy relics are better than their starting relic

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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:59 am 
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and unlike ironclad, their starting relic isn't nearly as important once they get some cards

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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 6:31 am 
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Here's another good one the game gave me on Asc 7:

- Obtain a Random Rare Card
- Obtain 3 Random Potions
- Lose All Gold; Choose a Random Rare Card
- Boss Relic Trade

----------------------

Edit: I took the first option and got Wraith Form.

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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 6:45 am 
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After the 1st floor, I'm at 61/65 HP.

My relics are:
Ring of the Snake
Golden Idol
Happy Flower
Runic Dodecahedron
Pantograph
Astrolabe

My Deck looks like (14 cards):
3x Defend
1x Strike
1x Strike+
1x Survivor
1x Neutralize+
1x Wraith Form
1x Wraith Form+
1x Heel Hook
1x Dagger Spray+
1x Noxious Fumes+*
1x Bullet Time+*
1x Doppelganger+*

* - Off of Astrolabe

This is going to be a very good or very bad run.

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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:09 am 
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I took 2, 8, 3, 5. 3, and 5 damage on the 2nd floor in all the fights leading up to the boss (The Champion). So I went into that fight with 64/65 health without ever resting lol.

I took rather more damage during the boss fight, but I still ended it with 28/65 hp. Had -21 Dex lol.

Relics Added this Floor:
Paper Krane
Bag of Preparations
Toolbox
Mummified Hand
Lizard Tail

My Deck Now (19 cards):
3x Defend
1x Strike+
1x Survivor
1x Neutralize+
2x Wraith Form+
1x Heel Hook
1x Dagger Spray
1x Dagger Spray+
1x Noxious Fumes+
1x Bullet Time+
1x Doppelganger+
1x J.A.X. <- Responsible for most of my damage on previous floor leading up to boss.
1x Malaise
2x Caltrops+
1x Adrenaline

This run is busted lol.

Entering Next Floor with 56/65. Bosses are Donu and Deca.

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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:41 am 
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Spikers are evil. So are 3rd floor elites with burns. I ended up jumping in the Moai Head to go to 57/57.

I had a power potion, strength potion, and essence of steel saved up for the final fight. The power potion made a Wraith Form.... I ended the fight with 56/57 hp and 5 Intangibility left.

And thus concludes the best Aggressive Silent Run I've ever had. Here is what the final picture looked like:

Image

The mummified hand completely broke this deck. So did Bullet Time and the fact that I had a 9 card starting hand.

Edit: This wasn't originally going to be a posted multi-post. It just got so more progressively broken each floor I couldn't resist. I knew I was going to win as soon as I saw the Donuts.

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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 8:14 am 
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Ragnarokio wrote:
and unlike ironclad, their starting relic isn't nearly as important once they get some cards


Bag of Preparation is so busted that I can't believe it's not rare. Starting with it guaranteed is really really good. I don't like to switch it. I'll post the math behind why when I get a chance later.

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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 10:06 am 
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Well I'm back. Time to do some math.

The following boss relics are in the Silent's pool:
- Astrolabe
- Black Star
- Calling Bell
- Cursed Key
- Ectoplasm
- Eternal Feather
- Lizard Tail
- Mark of Pain
- Orrery
- Pandora's Box
- Philosopher's Stone
- Runic Cube
- Runic Dome
- Runic Pyramid
- Snecko Eye
- Sozu
- Tiny House
- Velvet Choker
- White Beast Statue

The silent does not have a unique boss relic, while the other two characters have Black Blood and Nuclear Battery. This is because they downgraded "The Specimen" to rare.

So there are 19 boss relics in total. These are divided into definitely bad, chaotic (very random), a bit of a wash, and definitely good.

The ones you definitely don't want are Calling Bell, Eternal Feather, Lizard Tail, Orrery, Runic Pyramid, and Tiny House. That's 6 out of 19. These relics are all highly likely to leave you much worse off after the trade than if you had taken a different option. You have to remember you are trading your boss relic and whatever you would have gotten as your reward otherwise to get a random boss relic.

So 6/19 means there is a ~31.6% chance for the trade to go horribly wrong. And in some cases you just lose the run right there and are hoping to just make it to first boss to be able to get a Neow reward next run.

The next 3 ones I labeled Chaotic, or extremely random, are Pandora's Box, Snecko Eye, and Astrolabe. These are boss relics where you are rolling the die. You could instantly win the run at the start of it, you could instantly lose the run at the start of it, and any of the things between those two extremes can also happen. This is too random for my taste, so for me this is a negative category, but I'll leave it separate so other people can decide for themselves. You have a ~15.8% chance to get one of these.

The relics that are "a bit of a wash", from here-out labeled as average, are: White Beast Statue, Runic Cube, Ectoplasm, and Philosopher's Stone. Losing out on gold gain and the extra 2 damage at the very beginning of the run really do end up, in my opinion, averaging out. You do a lot worse by not being able to use shops or all enemies getting that attack buff from Floor 1. Especially once you reach Ascension 3 or higher where enemies basically already get the Philosopher's Stone buff and you are giving them a second one. I will consider this a neutral category, and there is a 4/19 or ~21.1% chance you'll end up with one of these.

The relics that are definitely good when used intelligently are: Black Star, Cursed Key, Mark of Pain, Runic Dome (if you are newer to the game than this one is more of a wash, but this is the best energy relic imo), Sozu, and Velvet Choker. That's the remaining 6/19.

So to sum up our table would look like:
6/19 - Definitely bad.
3/19 - Very random.
4/19 - Average.
6/19 - Definitely good.

In my opinion this means you have a 9/19 chance of getting a negative trade, a 4/19 chance of getting a trade that basically evens out, and only a 6/19 chance that you will get a positive trade.

Put more concisely, you basically have a 1 in 3 chance of the trade working and a 2 in 3 chance of it being "average", "extremely random", or worse. Since I think about it that way, I don't find it appealing for any of the three characters, because I only think of it as a 30-40% chance of getting a good deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:22 am 
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Mark of Pain is Ironclad-only


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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:39 am 
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Flopfoot wrote:
Mark of Pain is Ironclad-only


Now that I'm re-examining it, so is Runic Cube. I can see how I missed the red outline on Mark of Pain, but I don't know how I missed the Cube.

That makes the odds much worse.

---------------------------

I've played two runs today. The first one is up above. The second one was even more broken. I am going to post a little slide-show and then I'm going to stop playing today because I have used up my allocation of luck and my runs can only go down from here.

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Last edited by mjack33 on Sun May 20, 2018 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:51 am 
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This is inside a spoiler tag because..... size.

Broken Ascension 8 Run


This is why I treat Paper Krane as a near "free" win.

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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:22 pm 
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i think snecko eye as a starting relic is one of the best relics you can have, since building around it makes it kind of busted.

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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:19 pm 
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Well I couldn't resist getting back on after multiplayer video games pissed me off too much for me to continue with those. This time it took a couple of tries and Kunai is the relic that carried the day.

Image

Ragnarokio wrote:
i think snecko eye as a starting relic is one of the best relics you can have, since building around it makes it kind of busted.


It's completely random whether you can build around it. And you are not guaranteed to get balanced hands, so you can take a lot of extra damage if this is your starting relic.

I labeled it chaotic and I meant it. You can completely lose the run because the average cost of cards in your starting deck is less than 1. And you can completely win the run because sometimes the deck plays itself and you just add high cost cards and win because everything falls into place.

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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:22 pm 
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Ewww. I now have to do 4 runs with Ascender's Bane (Silent is at A10) to get Silent caught up to Ironclad (A14).

When it was just a Parasite, there basically wasn't a difference between A9 and A10. So it did need *some* change. But now that they've made it this..... thing; it completely warps the game balance around it and card value drastically changes because that curse is in your deck. I did A7, A8, and A9 within 4 runs. A10 is going to take me at least a dozen to re-learn how to play the character.

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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:52 pm 
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I have a fun brain teaser for you all:

Why did I skip the boss relic on the 2nd floor on that Ascension 9 run?

Edit: To make it fair, I'll add that my choices didn't include Calling Bell, Velvet Choker, Runic Pyramid, Snecko Eye, or Astrolabe.

The question is what 3 relics did I decide to skip entirely?

Edit: To make it even more fair I'll add that I got Kunai on floor 2.

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 Post subject: Re: Slay the Spire
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 8:36 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
TPmanW wrote:

My fatal mistake was opening up the creepy book and spending my dwindling hp to read further and further. I just really wanted to see what was in that book. I got the book and died against the 2nd boss in the next room.


Once you learn the game better the community treats this event as 13 hp loss to get the book or leave. There's not really a good option in between.

There are actually 3 possible books. The Enchiridion is the strongest in a random deck. The Necronomicon is the strongest in an Ironclad deck that can use it. And Nilry's Codex is the one that balances out the event. It's still really good, but it's so much worse than the other two it's not a close contest.

It is my opinion that you wouldn't have won the run if 13 hp for one of the books made you lose the 2nd boss fight. I think you made the right decision to take the book because if you had survived it would have significantly increased your chances of beating the 3rd and final floor.

Edit: I deliberately didn't spoil their effects, but for the above to make sense I do have to say that the Necronomicon is the only one with a downside and the only one that depends on deck composition. It's absolutely busted beyond all repair.... in the right deck.

I'm pretty sure I had Nilry's Codex. And you're right, I wouldn't have won anyway. I might have beat the 2nd boss though. Do you heal after each boss? My final, fatalest mistake was not accounting for being vulnerable when planning out a turn, but it probably wouldn't have got me more than a couple more turns. Going back, the real mistake was probably going too far into an aggro strategy. That and general noobery.

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*"To YMTC it up" means to design cards that have value mostly from a design perspective. i.e. you would put them in a case under glass in your living room and visitors could remark upon the wonderful design principles, with nobody ever worring if the cards are annoying/pointless/confusing in actual play

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