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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:18 am 
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Ready to claim target when it comes my turn.

How long should we give claims by the way?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:27 am 
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I'm against dragging it out - I'd say, if people don't respond within a few hours, we move on. While I think this could be useful, I don't believe it's critical.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:32 am 
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I don't know how long to give people, but I want to mention that I am in a vastly different time zone than all you North American people (I think you're all from NA, apologies if I'm wrong). Also, I will be absent pretty much the whole weekend as I am traveling almost halfway across the world (but going north, so still in a non-NA timezone) and reuniting with my wife after five weeks apart. So don't expect much activity from me between Friday and Sunday.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:40 am 
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I targeted Zinger and he is the Pokescum.

Zinger claim next.

@Aargh: I'm not following your idea.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:41 am 
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Truth be told everyone should just claim their stuff. Especially since you guys are sitting here talking about different time zones, how long to give people, and being absent at different times (Arrgh).


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:34 am 
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We have almost a week left...I don't know if we need to worry that much about time. As long as everyone gets their target/result in by the weekend, we should have plenty of time to discuss.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:46 am 
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KoD: I told you I was OK with the idea being up for discussion. I don't like that you went ahead and ignored it without discussion. I'm not saying that means you're scum, but I don't see how you could consider it good for town to ignore discussion and strategy.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:50 am 
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The only discussion that matters is who we targeted and with what results.

There is no reason to hold either of it back because it nets no benefit whatsoever.

The fact you and Shock have been talking about this makes me suspect one of you two is the Pokescum, but ultimately it will come down to who gets killed off and what gets revealed.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:09 am 
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@KoD - in a normal game, I'd disagree, as, having scum have to claim like this could easily lead to a situation where one of two people is lying.
With the miller role...that kind of messes everything up, so it's not as likely that scum will get into a corner.

BUT, I have to agree with Argh - not even discussing it is not a towny thing to do.

Right now, you and Zinger are my top suspects.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:37 pm 
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I made a clear argument for why my method makes it harder for scum to find a safe lie, while town loses absolutely nothing except, at worst, one day of discussion. I have never argued for keeping information hidden from town, I have only advised caution in how quickly and easily we reveal it to scum. There are scenarios where scum could kill both the sane and insane cop before either of them hits him. At that point the only way for town to win is by old fashioned scumhunting. Anything that makes it harder for scum to hide would be an advantage in that scenario, and it really frustrates me that you are unwilling to even consider it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:41 pm 
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On the contrary Neo. Discussing the merits of whether or not we should claim in parts or all at once has no bearing on the actual issue of finding the Pokescum. In a normal game, discussion on such a topic as approaching claiming would have its merits; however, that is not the case solely in this game. To that end, I've already explained why it doesn't matter. If you feel that such a method has merit in this game, then explain exactly how it would trip up the Pokescum.

I ask you to do that because as it stands this game, like mafia, is purely about information; however, unlike mafia, behavioral analysis is not as big of a factor in it. It matters when deciding the lynch ultimately, but in the days leading up to that day all that matters is discussing the information we get. Withholding information until a later point does nothing to hinder the scum.

At best you manage to catch the Pokescum in counterclaim against one other player. Otherwise the Pokescum can work out who is what once the information is released since the Pokescum knows who is what alignment.


@Arrgh: Your argument has no merit. Scum will not have a "harder" time claiming despite what you may think. Scum doesn't have to think very hard to play as there are two approaches to how they do this.

At the end of the day it is all about information and holding it back until a later time accomplishes nothing UNLESS everyone decides to withhold their results at which point the Pokescum won't be able to deduce who is what cop, but on the other side of the same coin town won't be able to find out who is what cop.


As for old fashioned scum hunting, I was already a part of that scenario where I set it up that way in the last game. Problem is is that the "scum hunting" you are talking about is completely arbitrary with the opinions being presented. For example you and Neo are making a deal about how "it isn't townie" to not discuss a stupid strategy to finding the Pokescum. While you're completely within your right to talk about whatever you want, that doesn't mean your view is the "townie" view per se. If anything, putting such talk forth and making a claim that it is not townie comes off as opportunistic which would make for a scummy motivation.

So perhaps either you or Neo are the Pokescum.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:59 pm 
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KoD - how do you play this game?

Personally, I create excel files. 5 grids per page, each with each of the five players, assuming one is scum in each. Then, as claims come in, I gray out the impossible roles for each player, and use that to determine which grouping, based on 4 of the 5 claims being true, is not possible. This shows who could be which role, based if each player is scum.
While I don't think I'm explaining it correctly, it works, really, really well. It's easy to catch the scum player by eliminating each other player, based on the fact that each cop role only exists once.

Of course, with the miller role, it makes it much more complicated, as each day spawns a whole new sheet, with the reversed outcomes.

For example, and I'll have to claim here...I checked Zinger, as I said, and he came up as town.

So, assuming no miller ability used N0...

If Zinger is scum, I'm either Naive or Insane.
If Zinger is not scum, I'm either Scum, Naive or Sane. I cannot be paranoid.

If Zinger is scum, you are either Sane or Paranoid.
If Zinger is not scum, you are either scum, insane or paranoid.

Once we have all claims, it will fill in more, generally (again, assuming no miller role used) eliminating someone from being scum.

Here's where the "meta planning" comes in. If scum is doing the same thing, they can come up with a person and a result that does not eliminate someone. If they are locked into claiming earlier, they can figure out something that does not eliminate someone, leading to less information and so on.

This is basically a math game (made much more complicated with the miller twist). As long as town doesn't lie, we should be able to figure it out. Having scum have to claim before the end can only help eliminate people from the scum list.

And, I just caught a Psyduck, while tying this at work. Fun times.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:03 pm 
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Without reading the rest of your post: To answer your question -


This is my second Dethy game. My first one (of which I believe you were a part of it but I could be wrong -- it was Rag, Zinger, me, and two others) I was the scum and got to see how to approach the game from that mentality. In that game town just played with all information being revealed as it was argued that nothing else needed to be focused on since it is more like a puzzle (to which I agree it is). I tried to inject a bit of "scumhunting" into it by playing off of Zinger, but Rag ultimately switched to me because of Zinger's give up frustration which ended up foiling me.

As far as this game goes, nothing changes my perception of the approach. Limiting information in the way Arrgh wants doesn't hinder the scum. It hinders everyone, but ultimately whatever the Pokescum picks he can just work off of what we reveal to either slip in where he wants or enter into a counterclaim scenario.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:08 pm 
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Also Neo, I play with the info presented and work it out on paper. As scum it was easy after the first day to narrow two people down as certain cios since a few copped me.

Overall the Miller time ability doesn't matter. It just drags out the game and the only pitfall is the town not having people double check to make sure it happened. I mean, it's easy to work through.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:12 pm 
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@KoD: You received a scum result and think that's a possibility? Well, just have to see what else turns up.

*Ninja... Ninja... Long phone wait ninja... Refresh triple ninja*

*Drums fingers on desk waiting for Zinger.*

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:28 pm 
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@KoD: I had this long and well thought out reply half typed up when I got a phone call on the phone I was writing from. So here's the simplified version: I got annoyed at your behavior and made some hasty statements that in retrospect were bad. My method is not objectively better, but it could be situationally good for town. Basically, direct claim is higher risk/reward as scum's likelihood of creating a believable lie is affected by where in the line he is. My method makes scum's "safe spots" harder to hit, while also removing the possibility of scum trapping themselves in an early claim. So there are clear and valid arguments in either direction. As far as I can recall (I'm on mobile, it's hard for me to check back in the thread right now) you were not willing to listen to any of those arguments, nor offer any of your own. Instead you just told us we were wrong and decided on a course of action for the entire group by yourself. Refusing to cooperate with the group is bad, even if you know the group is wrong.

Ninja edit: see, now you are explaining yourself! Thank you, you are beginning to make sense now. I still think you were rude, but I admit that you may have been right.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:57 pm 
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All it means shock is that I'm either paranoid or the actual cop. OR the Pokescum used his ability during that night and i"m naive or insane.

Which means I'll be targeting Zinger again to confirm whether the ability was used this night for sure, but another other person should do so likewise on their target to make sure.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:59 pm 
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My thoughts exactly.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:01 pm 
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Arrgh, you're not following this. At all. Like, in no realm of reality does us directly claiming now or half now half later make it harder for scum to lie.

At some point whether it is now or later we will all have to give results and the scum will have to give a result as well. It doesn't matter what that result is.

Why you think that scum will get caught out in a lie so easily by concealing results now is beyond me. The only scenario where a scum gets caught in a lie is if he ends up trying to assume the same role as a cop that is still alive which only means one of two people is scum (we won't know who which means we have to choose like Rag did against Zinger and I). That scenario won't happen though until later in the game when some people are dead.

There is literally no bad claim the scum can make, unless it is to claim that he is the Pokescum.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:02 pm 
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You guys should just claim your results as opposed to waiting.


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