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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:20 am 
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I think that might be the problem man. You see this as "enmity." If that's the feeling you get from my posts, I'm sorry. You're misinterpreting the message that I'm trying to convey. I'm not hating on you, I just don't think that what you're saying is good advice for beginners. You'll have to excuse me if I get a little over-zealous in regards to how new players are taught the game of magic. Hell, when you first brought the concept up months ago, I wrote out a post, similar to the one above that you praise for being well thought out. But you continue to suggest 20 land decks, so eventually I get to the point where I stop making 5 paragraph posts and simply lay it out, 20 land decks are not the optimal way to run your decks in DotP.

edit: actually there is a little bit of enmity, but only when you call me a troll, because I have never trolled you. (I'm still not sure if the reverse is true, or if you actually believe what you said about AI decks)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:26 am 
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Shadowcran wrote:
I'll also remove anything from first post related to land count. Someone else do a thread on it and I'll avoid it like the plague as I WILL disagree with most of it. Deal?

I think splitting the discussion is a great idea and could be well placed in Magic General. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:32 am 
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Shadowcran wrote:
awake283 wrote:
Anyone want to play on 360? Live tag is same as my forum tag.


Sorry man, I'm on Steam but yes, I would love to team. About to play some myself.


Shadow,
sixty4half is spikey but nice.
And a good player also.
Take the grains of salt and spice up the convo.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:53 am 
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I just want to keep the peace. I also mentioned somewhere how many lands I use for each deck.

Someone else do the thread and I won't even go into it about land count.

I forgot to ask, Devil, why can't you play on Steam lately? I've teamed with quite a few from old forum.

and you have 2 private messages from me.

And I just got kicked from another match lobby. This seems to happen 75% of the time whenever I play MotD, GoL, LoD, SotS, MM, DnB, and lately EtD and AG..am I going to have to resort to playing only slivers so I don't get kicked?

I've worked hard on my Slivers...I've got it to the level of "Not embarrassed to play it" which is up from "Wish I'd never laid eyes on this deck"

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:19 am 
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Since this is a 2HG discussion thread, I guess I am going to go one by one and state basic advice on the decks.

Here are the first two:

Celestial Light

First, you are going to be tempted to go almost creatureless. DON'T DO IT. Here is the reason why. Red, blue, and black are the most popular colors in 2HG. Creature light versions of dodge and burn, the demon deck, Deadwalkers, firewave, and mind maze can all easily handle only one opponent's creatures, when the only goal is to get rid of anything that will have an aura on it. Assuming you can even get a partner who isn't playing a creature light deck, you are basically making the match 2 on 1 when it comes to the removal aspect of it. Because you aren't really summoning any creatures worth killing if your only plan is to put auras on things.

Now that is out of the way, what creatures have to be run:

kor spiritdancer - all 4; even ignoring the draw, this thing is still amazing on attack and defense; This thing is basically always a threat, since most of your araus will pump it while at the same time giving it evasion.
ajani's sunstriker - Most of your auras give your creatures soem serious evasion. Lifelink with evasion is really really freaking good.
mesa enchantress - Here is how you use this. You put it on the field, and you never try to enchant it. You will then have a decent chance of drawing off of it forever, as people don't actually want to kill the 0 attack creature when other threats are lurking. Even with the amount of card draw she generates, a lot of randoms don't realize this thing unenchanted is more dangerous than a cat with armored ascension.
dawn elemental - It's flying, and it survives red. It can't be killed under normal blocking circumstances.

Spells you have to run:
lifelink - This is a subtle 1 mana buff that not only makes your spiritdancers a signigicant threat, it can basically be thrown on anything big your partner summons.
divine favor - The 3 life can actually be relevant, and this does two things. One, it insanely buffs your spiritdancer. Two, it puts you out of the range of most creature's power to kill, making anything with lifegain you or your partner have just stick around forever. I am singleing this card out because it is cheap enough to easily be played the same turn as a creature.
angelic destiny - The best aura in the deck, it is tutorable, and you get 2 copies. Something becomes giant with flying and first strike. If that thing is a kor, then its really freaking giant and you drew a card. If it's a cat, you have a baneslayer angel with a +1/+1 token. If it's anything else, it's giant with a decent buff. This on anything nasty..... your opponent's will hate this card. But here is the real kicker. IT COMES BACK TO YOUR HAND WHEN THE CRATURE DIES.


Avacyn's Glory

This should be played similar to how you play it in 1v1, except you should now make room for every buff and every piece of removal.

Here are some cards that become much better in 2HG:
soul warden - It will gain you tons of life. Two of these can get you over 100 life. Literally. It has happened multiple times literally.
baneslayer angel - some of you don't run this in 1v1....... In 2HG it's must run due to demons being a top deck, due to the lifelink, and generally due to the it being very hard to kill without removal.
twilight shepherd - In additon to letting you be able to do a suicide rush or large gang blocks with your nontoken creatures, this thing's "persist" trigger does two things: 1. field wipe insurance 2. Makes it very hard to permanently kill without a large flying creature or 2 removal spells. This thing is a 5/5 flying vigilance that becomes a 4/4 flying vigilance upon death, in additon to acting as field wipe insurance. How many creatures in the gain are actually big enough to survive battle with this thing the first time around? What about the second? With vigilance, this thing is nasty as its own creature. This is also one of many reasons you don't run archangel

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:21 am 
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Time for another 2.

Demons

First things first, your build should be fast enough to survive in 1v1. Don't bring a top heavy deck that will always need your partner's help to get going at all, and don't bring something that falls apart if you don't get heartless summoning.

Run soot imps. They do 2 damage per turn a lot of opponent's turns in addition to 1 attacking damage on most early turns.
Run all of the 2-4 cmc removal. Just do it. This deck needs it all to survive unfortunately.
reiver demon becomes much much better here than in 1v1, because games go longer and it becomes a more reliable use.
You should be running all of the draw here, as your life total can better handle it most games. More importantly, most of it can make your partner draw.
At a minimum you should run the 3 bloodgift demon, harvester, the morbid trigger dude, and rune-scarred as your demons. Reiver rounds this out if you want him.

Run at least 25 lands. This deck doesn't get any draw until 5 mana, and this deck cannot afford to miss any of its first 5 land drops.

Deadwalkers

There isn't much to change here. Any build from 1v1 is basically what you should be running in 2v2, albeit you should make sure to throw in any 2-4 cmc removal you aren't running. Take a good look at grave titan if you aren't running him also.

avatar of woe becomes a viable choice in 2HG, but a risky one. There is always a chance you can hardcast her, and there becomes a decent chance of you getting the alternate cost about 7 or 8 turns in. Her effect is very good for what she is, but there will be some games where you would get her and not be able to use her.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:33 am 
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On my part, I will try and keep things civil as well. I will not block anyone again, as that does not help. I will also not sit back and not comment when I believe someone is giving bad advice. I will also not sit back and take insults, as I did on the other site.

While there were many things posted in this thread that are just not true, I'm not going to go back and dispute each of them. I will let it drop here.

@Slobad - I'm just going to add this to the already large list of reasons why I'm happier on this forum than the old one.

Now...hopefully, I'll be able to find some time to play today, since I'm home sick from work...

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:39 am 
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Shadowcran wrote:
Over 1800 hours in this game version alone.
Been playing since 1994
Skipped 11 years while married
Spent over 2000 in last year's version. Even more on other versions including the modded 1995 Microprose game.

I appreciate your post as it was clearly explained rather than "it just is". I'm not kidding when I've said I playtested the amount of lands per deck for over 500 hours. I'm disabled and have all the free time in case you're wondering how.

I'm glad my wife didn't ask me to quit magic!

Anyway, I appreciate the time you spent playing the game, that's pretty impressive, but put it into perspective. Compare it to 20 years of playtesting and theory crafting done by hundred of thousands of players around the world, many of which competing for a whole lot of money. The last part is important. When you're just playing and testing for the sake of playing and testing, with nothing really on the line, it's easy to get caught into your ego and dismiss facts that contradict your opinions. Without even noticing, soon you get into a mindset of proving your point rather than getting better. When there's money on the line though, the ego gets pushed away. If facts contradict what you thought was right, you listen to the facts, because doing so gets you closer to winning that money. There's no money to be won in proving your point.

So as impressive as those hours are from a single person, and they truly are, they are still dwarfed in comparison to the collective playtesting time by the magic community as a whole. There have been paradigm shifting discoveries that went against the global wisdom before, but number of lands in a ramp deck is not where you'll change history of magic. There's just too many facts going against you.

Quote:
In the old days it was almost written in stone, 20 lands!20 creatures!20 Spells! As I'm sure you recall. I never could do that as I've always had rotten luck so I would run 22 as that was always the best choice and would seek out any specialty lands I could find. Then, I never did the math as I was just out of college and tired of anything school related and just wanted to have fun with the game.

This just isn't the same. The 20/20/20 rule had nothing backing it. It was just used because it was aesthetically pleasing. You, and many others, quickly discovered that it made no sense in all but the most aggressive decks. Even Sligh, one of the most aggressive deck of its time, as early as 1996 (the article says that it was first built around 1994, but I don't have that list), played 23 lands. That shows how short lived the "20/20/20" rule was (I doubt it ever held beyond casual groups).

Quote:
Now it seems written in stone: 24 lands or else or the formula you mentioned. I'm finding it wrong but I'm hesitant to show the math fallacies backing them up. They're the same ones used for 20/20/20 in the old days but altered to make the one using the math right...regardless of any basis in fact. I have fun with this game and don't want to have to resort to it, but if pressed too hard...sigh..I'll go do the math against it...(I'd almost rather put a gun to my head).

No, see, it's not written in stone. It's a general rule. Look at some of the top decks in recent events (I link to standard because I think it's the closest to the power level of DotP). If you check a few decks of the same archetype, you'll see that the number of lands sometimes varies. Some aggro decks play 23, or even 24 lands, others go as low as 20. There are a lot of variables to consider, too many for any hard rules to ever be true. The rules I stated are more as starting point. The thing though is that unless there's something very special about your deck, there's really no reason why the optimal number of lands would diverge too far from the general rule. You may find that you need 1 land more or less, but any major divergence needs to be explained.

CoMD is just as generic as ramp decks come. There's absolutely nothing about it that would lead me to believe it can run on much fewer lands than a typical ramp deck. Hell, the presence of Oracle tells me that it can actually support more lands than usual due to the ability to filter those lands off the top of your deck (ignore this if you're not playing oracle).

I'm not going to contradict the numbers for the other decks because frankly, I don't have enough experience with them yet. I'm no where near as serious about DotP as some of you guys, so I have no idea what the typical builds for each decks are like. I see nothing shocking about playing 22 lands in a deck, assuming it's fairly aggressive. Maybe the optimal number is 23 in some cases, but often, the difference between 1 land is pretty hard to appreciate when you're so close to the golden number. Hell, the golden number in theory might be 22.5 lands.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:13 am 
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Right now, here are the land numbers I think are recommended:

Elves, Mind Maze, Deadwalkers, Avacyn's Glory : 23 or 24

Bant and Demons : 25 or 26

Chant : 24 +

Everyone else: 24 or 25

This is just from my personal experience, so it could be wrong. I know Shadowcran is getting different numbers, but has anyone else noticed any of these numbers are just plain wrong for them?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:18 pm 
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My friend just showed me his deck that runs 2 land. I think that's excessive and that he can probably get away with only 1 but hey, what can I say about a deck that can put 10+ goblins in play on T1?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:50 pm 
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sixty4half wrote:
My friend just showed me his deck that runs 2 land. I think that's excessive and that he can probably get away with only 1 but hey, what can I say about a deck that can put 10+ goblins in play on T1?

I can only hope you're kidding.

Speaking of goblins, I did a vote/poll months ago about what type decks would players like to see in expansion and deck packs. Goblins didn't get one single vote out of the hundreds given . Is this due to GG being too op in 1 vs 1 last year do you guys think?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:53 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
Right now, here are the land numbers I think are recommended:

Elves, Mind Maze, Deadwalkers, Avacyn's Glory : 23 or 24

Bant and Demons : 25 or 26

Chant : 24 +

Everyone else: 24 or 25

This is just from my personal experience, so it could be wrong. I know Shadowcran is getting different numbers, but has anyone else noticed any of these numbers are just plain wrong for them?

I said I wouldn't debate this anymore. I stand by that. I recommend others build a thread on land count, which I will not even look at.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:11 pm 
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Filobel wrote:
Shadowcran wrote:
Over 1800 hours in this game version alone.
Been playing since 1994
Skipped 11 years while married
Spent over 2000 in last year's version. Even more on other versions including the modded 1995 Microprose game.

I appreciate your post as it was clearly explained rather than "it just is". I'm not kidding when I've said I playtested the amount of lands per deck for over 500 hours. I'm disabled and have all the free time in case you're wondering how.

I'm glad my wife didn't ask me to quit magic! She didn't in my case, just couldn't afford the cards and all that plus I was working a lot....Lost my cards due to a busted water pipe..please don't ask what I lost..it's too painful

Anyway, I appreciate the time you spent playing the game, that's pretty impressive, but put it into perspective. Compare it to 20 years of playtesting and theory crafting done by hundred of thousands of players around the world, many of which competing for a whole lot of money. The last part is important. When you're just playing and testing for the sake of playing and testing, with nothing really on the line, it's easy to get caught into your ego and dismiss facts that contradict your opinions. Without even noticing, soon you get into a mindset of proving your point rather than getting better. When there's money on the line though, the ego gets pushed away. If facts contradict what you thought was right, you listen to the facts, because doing so gets you closer to winning that money. There's no money to be won in proving your point.

No, the more I playtested, the more my points disappeared. The lands, I thought, were supposed to be 24 before the playtesting as one example. Some cards, dismissed as useless by me, became instead regular parts of the builds for another example.

So as impressive as those hours are from a single person, and they truly are, they are still dwarfed in comparison to the collective playtesting time by the magic community as a whole. There have been paradigm shifting discoveries that went against the global wisdom before, but number of lands in a ramp deck is not where you'll change history of magic. There's just too many facts going against you.

I listen closely to that community. However, they always become stuck in patterns and will not listen to anything different. I'm very serious about this. They will become stuck in dogma, to the point of defending it like others defending their religious stances.
I'll explain a bit here: When I first built Chant I went with 28 lands as per what most recommended. I quickly discovered I would get many turns in a row with drawing only lands, no ramp or other spells. Of course, this is death in most MTG games. So I lowered all the way down to 20, one at a time. I was determined to find correct answer. 20 and 21 were not it...definitely. 24 to 28 definitely weren't it. 22 worked best with 23 doing fine too as long as I used all ramp except Exploration, into the wilds and Khalni Expedition(which I count as ramp battery, not ramp itself). The deck also possesses enough tutors in lieu of land to get to primevil titans easily.

one thing I had to change was my distaste at using Oracle of Mul Daya as last year she wasn't as good. I learned my lesson this time, she's phenomenal. I also learned the deck does not need to use any It that Betrays at all.


Quote:
In the old days it was almost written in stone, 20 lands!20 creatures!20 Spells! As I'm sure you recall. I never could do that as I've always had rotten luck so I would run 22 as that was always the best choice and would seek out any specialty lands I could find. Then, I never did the math as I was just out of college and tired of anything school related and just wanted to have fun with the game.

This just isn't the same. The 20/20/20 rule had nothing backing it. It was just used because it was aesthetically pleasing. You, and many others, quickly discovered that it made no sense in all but the most aggressive decks. Even Sligh, one of the most aggressive deck of its time, as early as 1996 (the article says that it was first built around 1994, but I don't have that list), played 23 lands. That shows how short lived the "20/20/20" rule was (I doubt it ever held beyond casual groups).

Quote:
Now it seems written in stone: 24 lands or else or the formula you mentioned. I'm finding it wrong but I'm hesitant to show the math fallacies backing them up. They're the same ones used for 20/20/20 in the old days but altered to make the one using the math right...regardless of any basis in fact. I have fun with this game and don't want to have to resort to it, but if pressed too hard...sigh..I'll go do the math against it...(I'd almost rather put a gun to my head).

No, see, it's not written in stone. It's a general rule. Look at some of the top decks in recent events (I link to standard because I think it's the closest to the power level of DotP). If you check a few decks of the same archetype, you'll see that the number of lands sometimes varies. Some aggro decks play 23, or even 24 lands, others go as low as 20. There are a lot of variables to consider, too many for any hard rules to ever be true. The rules I stated are more as starting point. The thing though is that unless there's something very special about your deck, there's really no reason why the optimal number of lands would diverge too far from the general rule. You may find that you need 1 land more or less, but any major divergence needs to be explained.

CoMD is just as generic as ramp decks come. There's absolutely nothing about it that would lead me to believe it can run on much fewer lands than a typical ramp deck. Hell, the presence of Oracle tells me that it can actually support more lands than usual due to the ability to filter those lands off the top of your deck (ignore this if you're not playing oracle).

I'm not going to contradict the numbers for the other decks because frankly, I don't have enough experience with them yet. I'm no where near as serious about DotP as some of you guys, so I have no idea what the typical builds for each decks are like. I see nothing shocking about playing 22 lands in a deck, assuming it's fairly aggressive. Maybe the optimal number is 23 in some cases, but often, the difference between 1 land is pretty hard to appreciate when you're so close to the golden number. Hell, the golden number in theory might be 22.5 lands.


As to this..Come on board the serious train friend. The community can definitely use your input.
Lol at 22.5 lands...it DOES seem that's the ideal number most times. or 23.5 even.

I have also been playtesting "unused cards". I had a thread on other site about it. Players would name it, I'd try it out if I hadn't already. This also benefitted me as I found several cards that were hidden gold. On the flip, I found some cards were even worse than they appeared on first glance,heh.

The main thing I found is the whole community is often wrong about things and that includes me. It's best to not accept anything as true or false. It's best to do your own testing. It's best to go into that with an open mind too.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:16 pm 
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I kind of miss the numbered lists. Anyway we can get these on this site?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:22 pm 
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Shadowcran wrote:
sixty4half wrote:
My friend just showed me his deck that runs 2 land. I think that's excessive and that he can probably get away with only 1 but hey, what can I say about a deck that can put 10+ goblins in play on T1?

I can only hope you're kidding.

Speaking of goblins, I did a vote/poll months ago about what type decks would players like to see in expansion and deck packs. Goblins didn't get one single vote out of the hundreds given . Is this
due to GG being too op in 1 vs 1 last year do you guys think?


He's not kidding...
His friend plays a legacy charbelcher deck. They run between 1 and 2 lands and win with either Goblin Charbelcher or Empty the Warrens. Here is a sample list http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=58815

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:26 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
Since this is a 2HG discussion thread, I guess I am going to go one by one and state basic advice on the decks.

Here are the first two:

Celestial Light

First, you are going to be tempted to go almost creatureless. DON'T DO IT. Here is the reason why. Red, blue, and black are the most popular colors in 2HG. Creature light versions of dodge and burn, the demon deck, Deadwalkers, firewave, and mind maze can all easily handle only one opponent's creatures, when the only goal is to get rid of anything that will have an aura on it. Assuming you can even get a partner who isn't playing a creature light deck, you are basically making the match 2 on 1 when it comes to the removal aspect of it. Because you aren't really summoning any creatures worth killing if your only plan is to put auras on things.

I've had to add more creatures since expansion and I won a TON with this deck before.

Now that is out of the way, what creatures have to be run:

kor spiritdancer - all 4; even ignoring the draw, this thing is still amazing on attack and defense; This thing is basically always a threat, since most of your araus will pump it while at the same time giving it evasion.
ajani's sunstriker - Most of your auras give your creatures soem serious evasion. Lifelink with evasion is really really freaking good. It's one of the best chump creature around. 2/2 lifelink
mesa enchantress - Here is how you use this. You put it on the field, and you never try to enchant it. You will then have a decent chance of drawing off of it forever, as people don't actually want to kill the 0 attack creature when other threats are lurking. Even with the amount of card draw she generates, a lot of randoms don't realize this thing unenchanted is more dangerous than a cat with armored ascension. This is true. You leave Mesa at 0, most seem to forget she's there.
dawn elemental - It's flying, and it survives red. It can't be killed under normal blocking circumstances. Yes, it has a lot better chance than Seraph of the Sword, which seems to always die fast since expansion.

Spells you have to run:
lifelink - This is a subtle 1 mana buff that not only makes your spiritdancers a signigicant threat, it can basically be thrown on anything big your partner summons.
This is one many experts will tell you not to run. Don't listen. It's good due to reasons mjack stated
divine favor - The 3 life can actually be relevant, and this does two things. One, it insanely buffs your spiritdancer. Two, it puts you out of the range of most creature's power to kill, making anything with lifegain you or your partner have just stick around forever. I am singleing this card out because it is cheap enough to easily be played the same turn as a creature.
This is another a lot of experts scorn. Don't listen to them. It's also good due to reasons mjack states here
angelic destiny - The best aura in the deck, it is tutorable, and you get 2 copies. Something becomes giant with flying and first strike. If that thing is a kor, then its really freaking giant and you drew a card. If it's a cat, you have a baneslayer angel with a +1/+1 token. If it's anything else, it's giant with a decent buff. This on anything nasty..... your opponent's will hate this card. But here is the real kicker. IT COMES BACK TO YOUR HAND WHEN THE CRATURE DIES.

Angelic Destiny is ok compared to armored ascension, but don't let ascension alone talk you out of using this.


Avacyn's Glory

This should be played similar to how you play it in 1v1, except you should now make room for every buff and every piece of removal.

Here are some cards that become much better in 2HG:
soul warden - It will gain you tons of life. Two of these can get you over 100 life. Literally. It has happened multiple times literally. Shh...Don't give away ALL secrets. lol. It's true, and players often won't waste removal until the warden has given you a lot of hp.
baneslayer angel - some of you don't run this in 1v1....... In 2HG it's must run due to demons being a top deck, due to the lifelink, and generally due to the it being very hard to kill without removal.
twilight shepherd - In additon to letting you be able to do a suicide rush or large gang blocks with your nontoken creatures, this thing's "persist" trigger does two things: 1. field wipe insurance 2. Makes it very hard to permanently kill without a large flying creature or 2 removal spells. This thing is a 5/5 flying vigilance that becomes a 4/4 flying vigilance upon death, in additon to acting as field wipe insurance. How many creatures in the gain are actually big enough to survive battle with this thing the first time around? What about the second? With vigilance, this thing is nasty as its own creature. This is also one of many reasons you don't run archangel

Yep, Archangel is a poor man's Serra Angel, which is a poor man's Baneslayer Angel.

Only angel I really don't like is Voice of the provinces.

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If You get an aggro player to stop attacking, you've got the match won.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:29 pm 
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Shadowcran wrote:
sixty4half wrote:
My friend just showed me his deck that runs 2 land. I think that's excessive and that he can probably get away with only 1 but hey, what can I say about a deck that can put 10+ goblins in play on T1?

I can only hope you're kidding.

Speaking of goblins, I did a vote/poll months ago about what type decks would players like to see in expansion and deck packs. Goblins didn't get one single vote out of the hundreds given . Is this
due to GG being too op in 1 vs 1 last year do you guys think?


He's not kidding...
His friend plays a legacy charbelcher deck. They run between 1 and 2 lands and win with either Goblin Charbelcher or Empty the Warrens. Here is a sample list http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=58815


Damn...That's freaking scary. I guess the game has gone more aggro in recent years,eh?

It was odd that goblins got zero votes. It was from the other site and Steam forums combined. Some did say they would like to see boggarts.

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If You get an aggro player to stop attacking, you've got the match won.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:17 pm 
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Belcher is a combo deck, not aggro. Also, to be fair, it may only have 1 land, but most of the cards in the deck produces mana. Anyway, I don't really know why Belcher was brought up here. I mean, there's been decks playing 40+ lands before, but neither 1 land belcher or lands.dec relate in any relevant way to DotP.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:21 pm 
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4 x Treasure Hunt
4 x Seismic Assault
52 assorted Islands and mountains

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PbP Characters


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:04 pm 
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4 seismic assaults? Are you crazy? :P You only need 1 or 2. Also, you can get fancy and play a few duals. After all, you can't get turn 2 treasure hunt into turn 3 assault with only basics.


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