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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:17 pm 
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Filobel wrote:
Well, I'd love a justification for reanimate as the worst card in UB. It's an amazing card and is vital to the all-in build.


This is pretty much just my personal opinion but I find that, in this deck, reanimate is just a horrible trap of a card. There is simply too much spot removal in the current meta to warrant losing cards and anywhere between one-quarter and one-half of your life points on a creature which could very easily die to a myriad of effects before it accomplishes anything - especially when there are safer (albeit more expensive) options to do pretty much the same thing. Bonus points for becoming progressively less useful the longer the game drags out (as you still have to take that massive life point hit and, unlike Deadwalkers, have no way to recoup lost life).

mjack33 wrote:
Garren, do you truly believe that exploration is worse than into the wilds and rites of flourishing?


In this deck? Yes. Yes I do. Exploration simply requires too much to fall perfectly into place to be of any use - in a deck with a lot of draw or something that supports it then it would be fine but here all it's going to do is *maybe* speed your ramp up by a turn or two but even this requires that you begin the game with both it in hand and a fist full of lands to use with it. Into the Wilds is a poor mans Oracle but at least once played it will sit there and do its thing - occasionally it will even allow you to draw something good that otherwise would have been a land. Rites of Flourishing is also wildly out of place in this deck but hey at the very least it isn't a useless top deck (as you can still play it and increase your draw late game while Exploration will just sit there being useless).

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:05 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
Garren, do you truly believe that exploration is worse than into the wilds and rites of flourishing?

In this deck? Yes. Yes I do. Exploration simply requires too much to fall perfectly into place to be of any use - in a deck with a lot of draw or something that supports it then it would be fine but here all it's going to do is *maybe* speed your ramp up by a turn or two but even this requires that you begin the game with both it in hand and a fist full of lands to use with it. Into the Wilds is a poor mans Oracle but at least once played it will sit there and do its thing - occasionally it will even allow you to draw something good that otherwise would have been a land. Rites of Flourishing is also wildly out of place in this deck but hey at the very least it isn't a useless top deck (as you can still play it and increase your draw late game while Exploration will just sit there being useless).

I suppose the question is: what's worse? A card that runs out of gas early, or a card that actively hurts you by aiding your opponent? I would say the latter, myself.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:14 pm 
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At least Rites of Flourishing has its uses in FFA/2HG. As our buddy Ramaz showed to us, Exploration is just terrible unless you have some kind of sick combo around it.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:17 pm 
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I suppose the question is: what's worse? A card that runs out of gas early, or a card that actively hurts you by aiding your opponent? I would say the latter, myself.


For me it's more a case of what's better - a consistent draw/ramp effect, albeit one with a double-edge, or a card that is useful in very specific circumstances and worthless outside of them. Of course this is entirely theoretical as both are just garbage in this deck and no-one should really be running either (cue 30 people crawling out of the woodwork claiming they run both).

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:36 pm 
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The thing is, Rites is going to benefit the opponent almost universally more than it does Chant. You have more tutors than anyone else, so giving the other guy a chance to keep up with you and/or find more counters/removal is one of the most godawful moves you can make.

Of course, it'd have a much more dramatic effect on the game if you've thinned your deck to nothing via Titan but if that's happened you're probably going to win anyway.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:49 pm 
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Best

MM - force of will
DW - corrupt
LOD - rune-scarred demon
HS - predator ooze
COTM - avenger of zendikar
SM - immaculate magistrate
FW - inferno titan
GOL - kor spiritdancer
BB - cathars' crusade
AG - path to exile
UB - accumulated knowledge
MOTD - stolen identity and spinal embrace
DB - remand
SS - umezawa's jitte
ETD - dragon broodmother
HOC - sublime archangel and finest hour
SH - mirror entity

Worst

MM - omniscience
DW - soul bleed and farbog boneflinger
LOD - lord of the pit
HS - wurmskin forger
COTM - rites of flourishing
SM - mythic proportions
FW - stalking vengeance
GOL - staff of the sun magus
BB - welkin guide
AG - voice of the provinces and angel's mercy
UB - silent-blade oni and cerulean sphinx
MOTD - vengeful vampire
DB - spirit away
SS - myojin of infinite rage
ETD - torrent of fire and artifact mutation
HOC - battleflight eagle
SH - coat of arms

We are fully update, and here is where we are after 6 people voted.


@garren, I don't know why you think the card sucks, but exploration is a very very good turn 1 play. So good that it can get an oracle out turn 2, which begins crazy stuff. While that is definitely hard to do........... a turn 1 exploration can routinely and easily get you to 4 lands by the end of your second turn without any effort. Is that really worse than rites of flourishing?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:19 pm 
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So.......... does anyone actually want to make an argument for why any of those should be different? Why the card you think is best or worst should be there instead?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:41 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
@garren, I don't know why you think the card sucks, but exploration is a very very good turn 1 play. So good that it can get an oracle out turn 2, which begins crazy stuff. While that is definitely hard to do........... a turn 1 exploration can routinely and easily get you to 4 lands by the end of your second turn without any effort. Is that really worse than rites of flourishing?


The emboldened is pretty much the summary of my argument. It is an excellent turn 1 play - and an awful any other turn play. It is hard to accomplish - Unfinished Business can be built entirely around a T2 combo and even that breaks half the time and this deck is anything but built for Exploration abuse. Even assuming it does turn up then what? Your T2 Oracle requires your opening hand to consist of Exploration, Oracle of Mul Daya and four Forests. Even if you deck is entirely stacked in your favour and you begin turn three by playing three consecutive Forests from it (bringing you up to an impressive 7-8) then what? You top-decking from turn three onwards. Yeah you can play anything you can draw but at the cost of being entirely at the mercy of whatever the deck spits out for you - and this is the best case scenario. Worst case you choke at four lands on turn three and get nothing but high-end creatures you have no way of playing.

Now I'm not saying Rites of Flourishing is much better but I'll take a little extra ramp and draw (even if my opponent gets the same) over the 'one hand in a hundred' situational usefulness of Exploration. I mean you always have the option of not playing it (as opposed to Exploration's 'playing this would do literately nothing'). I like having terrible, terrible options is what I'm saying.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:42 pm 
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Double Post!

So why is Torrent of Fire getting hate? Yeah it's inferior to Soul's Fire in most situations but how is it worst than Artifact Mutation?

Edit: Changed the wording a bit.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:51 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
Lexx and Drac added.

Lexx you only voted for 10 decks. In a new post, so that I don't have to do a lot of thinking, would you be willing to vote for the others?

Also garren I waited for you, but for the love of everything, remove the spoilers. That triples my amount of work man.......


I'm not familiar enough with the rest of the decks :/ I know maybe 70% of cards in them so I don't think it's enough to name best/worst cards.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:10 pm 
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Double Post!

So why is Torrent of Fire getting hate? Yeah it's inferior to Soul's Fire in most situations but how is it worst than Artifact Mutation?

Edit: Changed the wording a bit.


Because it relies on CMC of a monster.... and it costs 5 mana. At best you can do 8 damage to something for 5 mana, but more often you are going to do 2 - 4 IF YOU CAN DO SOMETHING. It's just overcosted as @#$% in most situations. artifact mutation can at least be justified by its mana cost if not by the meta.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:22 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
Artifact Mutation can at least be justified by its mana cost if not by the meta.


I assumed judging these cards within the meta as a whole is the point of this exercise. If we are judging the cards in and off themselves then why is Omniscience rated so low and Path to Exile so high? Aren't their ratings just a result of this meta being creature heavy and aggressively fast?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:24 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
Artifact Mutation can at least be justified by its mana cost if not by the meta.


I assumed judging these cards within the meta as a whole is the point of this exercise. If we are judging the cards in and off themselves then why is Omniscience rated so low and Path to Exile so high? Aren't their ratings just a result of this meta being creature heavy and aggressively fast?


Yeah. You are right. We are judging based on the meta. I guess Artifact Mutation is probably worse. However, it is a singleton. I would say torrent of fire still deserves to be in the running, just because we got 3 of them and that really hurts. That is also one of the main reasons I think oni is worse than the sphinx. They both suck, but oni ate up two fatty spots and lacks flying.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:23 pm 
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mjack33 wrote:
Artifact Mutation can at least be justified by its mana cost if not by the meta.


I assumed judging these cards within the meta as a whole is the point of this exercise. If we are judging the cards in and off themselves then why is Omniscience rated so low and Path to Exile so high? Aren't their ratings just a result of this meta being creature heavy and aggressively fast?



I interpret it as we're judging the cards based on the deck but not the meta.There couldn't exist a meta in dotp where I would run Omnisciencein MM but there could exist a meta where I would run Artifact Mutation in EtD. Also Path to Exile would be rated high regardless of if we are judging the cards on strength of the card by itself, within the deck it is in or within the current meta in dotp. That card is insanely powerful as it is one of the best removal spell printed since Swords to Plowshares (maybe an argument can be made for abrupt decay.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:45 pm 
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Yertle. You should vote.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:39 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:12 am 
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Painful Quandary?! But that card is my wincon in about 40% of games with MoD! I guess, our builds differ a lot from each other :)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:24 am 
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I'm doing this from memory, so I can't do worse cards since I don't know most of them:

Avacyn's Glory:
Champion of the Parish

Guardians of Light:
Kor Spiritdancer

Firewave:
Sulfuric Vortex

Masks of Dimir:
Last Gasp

Enter the Dracomancer:
Form of the Dragon

Hunter's Strength:
Eternal Witness

Mind Maze:
Counterspell

Deadwalkers:
Grave Titan

Chant of the Mul Daya:
Primeval Titan

Sliver Hive:
Predatory Sliver

Bounce and Boon:
Cloudgoat Ranger

Lords of Darkness:
No Mercy

Hall of Champions:
Rhox War Monk

Dodge and Burn:
Electrolyze

Sylvan Might:
Sylvan Messenger

Unfinished Business:
Exhume

Swords of the Samurai:
Umezawa's Jitte

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:23 am 
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Yertle, until you specify otherwise, I am just taking that as undercurrents. You can't vote for 2.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:43 am 
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So updated to here.

Best

MM - force of will
DW - corrupt
LOD - rune-scarred demon
HS - predator ooze
COTM - avenger of zendikar and tooth and nail
SM - immaculate magistrate
FW - inferno titan
GOL - kor spiritdancer
BB - cathars' crusade
AG - path to exile
UB - accumulated knowledge
MOTD - stolen identity and spinal embrace and last gasp
DB - remand
SS - umezawa's jitte
ETD - dragon broodmother
HOC - rhox war monk
SH - mirror entity

Worst

MM - omniscience
DW - soul bleed
LOD - lord of the pit
HS - wurmskin forger
COTM - rites of flourishing
SM - mythic proportions
FW - stalking vengeance
GOL - staff of the sun magus
BB - ancestor's chosen and welkin guide
AG - angel's mercy
UB - silent-blade oni and cerulean sphinx
MOTD - vengeful vampire
DB - spirit away
SS - myojin of infinite rage
ETD - torrent of fire and artifact mutation
HOC - battleflight eagle
SH - coat of arms


There are some interesting ties going on, but everything on here deserves it.

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