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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:05 am 
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So if anyone wants to run Mardu colors you have no real options, so we can rule out that color archetype as a whole right? Seems fair.


Yes. That is entirely fair. 3+ color control decks don't have a right to exist, And more often than not we need the mana fixing of modern for such things to work. This is nothing new in MTG, and a good Mardu deck does not have a right to exist the same way Hunting Season didn't have the right to beat Avacyn's Glory back in the day. After a certain point, it wasn't going to exist anyways, and this is merely due to the existence of top decks and what they mean for the rest of the format. There are 30 color combinations (plus Conflux) in any pool at any given time, and some are going to be worse.

----

The problems with Ramp is that it's too safe against aggro due to :r: Board wipes, while it has effectively infinite resources vs anything slower, typically having as many as 7 lands on turn 5. There is nothing in the game that really pressures or counters it, and it's capable of things like turn 5 Gaea's Revenge against control decks. The main way for control to beat it is to always have mana, a counterspell, and/or a Celestial Flare up (all of which can be done at 3 mana btw), which isn't exactly practical against a deck with as many resources as :g: ramp has. :G: cards are too efficient and powerful compared to the "answers" control has to try to use, which are generally crappy and situational and a lot more draw-prone than ramp has to worry about. You are on the correct track here. Counterspells DO require some thought and interaction, while playing Ramp mostly feels like playing Hearthstone if you don't have an Evolutionary Leap up. That's just how good, on average, the Ramp cards are.


Edit: Speaking of, if I was going to say something bad about acid moss's power level, it would be that it's able to fetch Cinder Glade and the :w: equivalent. That has been far more relevant than the land destruction.

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Last edited by mjack33 on Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:08 am 
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You may as well save what's left of your magic sanity and make peace with moss. I expect it will be less prevalent when the new sets come out - much better competition for turn 4 plays is on the way.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:15 am 
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Replacing Moss with Thoughtknot Seer...*shudder*

Gunshot or Poison sir?

But StepUp is right. This will (hopefully) be redundant come April. I will be desperately, SCREAMINGLY focussed on getting Mono Black and Azorius/Esper Control to work more consistently. Although, if black gets better removal options, then I may go Grixis instead since atm White has a bigger appeal for removal packages/wincons over Red in a control deck. If Black gets better removal and wincon options late game, Grixis will have Red for aggro + Blue for counters and draw + Black for actually winning the game.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:31 am 
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felbatista wrote:
I love how mjack says the correct thing in the worst possible manner. I'm pretty sure it's not the first time this has happened lol

He's right, though. Moss is not the reason Ramp is the best deck in the format.


Gruul Ramp (and I assume that is the ramp you refer to, as it has the best win % of them all) isn't the best deck in the format...it is the most consistent. That's why I am playing it in the tourney. If it didn't have Moss and was still the most consistent deck, I'd play Gruul Ramp still.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:39 am 
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Kryder wrote:
felbatista wrote:
I love how mjack says the correct thing in the worst possible manner. I'm pretty sure it's not the first time this has happened lol

He's right, though. Moss is not the reason Ramp is the best deck in the format.


Gruul Ramp (and I assume that is the ramp you refer to, as it has the best win % of them all) isn't the best deck in the format...it is the most consistent. That's why I am playing it in the tourney. If it didn't have Moss and was still the most consistent deck, I'd play Gruul Ramp still.


How do you define the best deck if not by its consistency? Ramp IS the best deck in the format. How do you construct your Ramp deck can change, and that can give you a variety of results, but doesn't change the fact that Ramp is the best.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:04 am 
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felbatista wrote:
Kryder wrote:
felbatista wrote:
I love how mjack says the correct thing in the worst possible manner. I'm pretty sure it's not the first time this has happened lol

He's right, though. Moss is not the reason Ramp is the best deck in the format.


Gruul Ramp (and I assume that is the ramp you refer to, as it has the best win % of them all) isn't the best deck in the format...it is the most consistent. That's why I am playing it in the tourney. If it didn't have Moss and was still the most consistent deck, I'd play Gruul Ramp still.


How do you define the best deck if not by its consistency? Ramp IS the best deck in the format. How do you construct your Ramp deck can change, and that can give you a variety of results, but doesn't change the fact that Ramp is the best.


Consistent does not necessarily define best...if you go into a game with "the most consistent deck" and your opponent comes in with a deck that counters your deck, your opponent has "the best deck".

The best deck we have in this meta is probably IzzetThopters, as it has no real bad matchups and very few dead draws, if any. It survives sweepers very well and has multiple attack vectors. It isn't quite as consistent as Gruul Ramp, mainly due to worse topdecks as the game progresses, but it's early/mid game is much, much better than ramp.

Gruul Ramp has several bad matchups and really has to draw well to have a chance...and it has to do it quickly in most of those situations. It really only has a single vector of attack, which is quite strong, but it can be countered.

But, back to the original point...neither Gruul Ramp nor IzzetThopters are the best because of any one card...it is all of the cards that they use put together as a whole. If we were to replace Moss with Natural Connection, I think the deck would suffer some power loss, but it would still be pretty strong.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:07 am 
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Moss gives Ramp tempo. Red gives it control. Evasive fatties gives it late game vs counters/removal. It has everything, but the tempo part pushing a lategame deck into midrange levels of coming online AND possibly locking any response you have out of the game is what's problematic. No one is debating it's consistent through other means, but giving the best average tempo/control/lategame deck a means to stop a large variety of decks from even playing vs them is just salt in the wound.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:15 am 
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Trying once more to explain why it doesn't belong in the pool:

Moss is a turn 4 direct 2 for 1 that synergizes with a ramp strategy. Nothing wrong with it. Considering it does not affect the boardstate (barring the lands), that's even underpowered.

You try playing this bad a card in a real format, and since you like to refer to modern, I'll do the same; you generally just die on the spot. t4 is massively important in modern, and often when the games aren't just won straight out on that turn, they are very often almost decided.

Now consider our Environment.
How many t4 goldfishes can you name? very very few, involving very specific cards; and requiring no interaction from the opponent. But Moss is a common. So you get 4 almost risk-free direct 2-for-1s in a deck that arguably has the best lategame power plays of the entire environment. A deck with 2 tutors for some of the strongest cards the format has.

Is there a way to answer moss efficiently unless i'm playing goblins or other aggro? Not much; there is Natural connection or bad countermagic. But as a midrange or controllish deck you are almost FORCED to run these cards because even if you are 2 colours; getting set back 2 turns on mana vs your opponent is a huge liability, since he has the best cards lategame, so you do not whish to be reduced to hope 'he doesn't have it'.

Moss doesn't always win games; but it costs the ramp player nothing, since the format is too underpowered to punish them for it (I don't wanna hear stories about how 'your' rakdos deck/goblin deck beats gruul 80/20, it doesn't, Gruul has plenty early interaction pre t4); and if LD is viable in a top deck in any format, this restricts the building of decks tremendously. Strip Mine; Wasteland, Ghost Quarter etc all define the formats where they are legal. Moss is hilariously bad in comparison, but our pool is so limited that it has a similar effect.

In closing, I'll just add that playing vs Mossdecks is as entertaining as watching paint dry. I can only hope the expansion will enable more powerful aggro decks (madness vamps and some zombies look good) which would make ramp in its current form unplayable very quickly.


Last edited by Goblin Rabblemaster on Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:33 am 
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Hey, I'd like a card that says something like: For each land a player puts into play, he loses 2 life.
Something like polluted bonds, but I'd trade the life gain for a cheaper casting cost.

Ramp that...

I don't believe acid moss is over powered (its definitely overplayed though imo). What I would like to have, is a common in this meta that made acid moss a terrible or obsolete card...

Eve this guy: Tunnel Ignus would be nice (GOOOOO RDW AGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGRRRRRROOOO!)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:37 am 
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Quote:
Moss doesn't always win games; but it costs the ramp player nothing, since the format is too underpowered to punish them for it; and if LD is viable in a top deck in any format, this restricts the building of decks tremendously. Strip Mine; Wasteland, Ghost Quarter etc all define the formats where they are legal. Moss is hilariously bad in comparison, but our pool is so limited that it has a similar effect.


For this bit alone upvoted. A free "**** you buddy!" on the 4th turn. It's almost like a taunt rather than an actual card. As many here are happy preaching, it shows they can waste a turn. And they don't care one bit. Against RDW or Thopters but neither consistently, then they can be punished for mooning us in the face. Outside of that, what comparable value do we get to respond with using 3 mana on turn 4? Krasis is the only one I can think of that affects the board state remotely close enough to present some threat. Flip PW, a bunch of 3cmc Black utility creatures and Thopter deck mainstays are really the only other options outside of Green. Turn 4 I would be expecting a lord, a 4/X beater or something that sets up a punishing turn 5. Even then, they'll have Oblivion Sowers and other nasties looming on the horizon (a 5/8 body shuts out any 4/4 or equivalent midrange deck staple).

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:29 am 
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Kryder wrote:
felbatista wrote:
Kryder wrote:

Gruul Ramp (and I assume that is the ramp you refer to, as it has the best win % of them all) isn't the best deck in the format...it is the most consistent. That's why I am playing it in the tourney. If it didn't have Moss and was still the most consistent deck, I'd play Gruul Ramp still.


How do you define the best deck if not by its consistency? Ramp IS the best deck in the format. How do you construct your Ramp deck can change, and that can give you a variety of results, but doesn't change the fact that Ramp is the best.


Consistent does not necessarily define best...if you go into a game with "the most consistent deck" and your opponent comes in with a deck that counters your deck, your opponent has "the best deck".

The best deck we have in this meta is probably IzzetThopters, as it has no real bad matchups and very few dead draws, if any. It survives sweepers very well and has multiple attack vectors. It isn't quite as consistent as Gruul Ramp, mainly due to worse topdecks as the game progresses, but it's early/mid game is much, much better than ramp.

Gruul Ramp has several bad matchups and really has to draw well to have a chance...and it has to do it quickly in most of those situations. It really only has a single vector of attack, which is quite strong, but it can be countered.

But, back to the original point...neither Gruul Ramp nor IzzetThopters are the best because of any one card...it is all of the cards that they use put together as a whole. If we were to replace Moss with Natural Connection, I think the deck would suffer some power loss, but it would still be pretty strong.


Ramp is the best deck because it's the deck that gives you the best chance of winning a game. Doesn't matters if it has a bad early game if it's good enough to take the game to where you want. Doesn't matter is it has only one angle of attack if there aren't decks that can defend said angle properly. It doesn't matter if it has bad matchups if those are a bunch of 40/60's or are bad decks. What you're trying to sell here is a very wrong concept.

Mind you that Ramp is not the best by a large margin. There are decks close to it, Thopters included. But, it still is the deck that gives you the best chance of winning a game of Duels right now.


Trying once more to explain why it doesn't belong in the pool:


The reasons you gave aren't reasons why Moss doesn't belong. They are reasons why our pool is underpowered. There's a difference here.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:51 am 
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You are right felbatista, I should perhaps rephrase that as 'why it is a very unfortunate card to have in our non-rotating environment'


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:53 am 
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felbatista wrote:
Kryder wrote:
felbatista wrote:

How do you define the best deck if not by its consistency? Ramp IS the best deck in the format. How do you construct your Ramp deck can change, and that can give you a variety of results, but doesn't change the fact that Ramp is the best.


Consistent does not necessarily define best...if you go into a game with "the most consistent deck" and your opponent comes in with a deck that counters your deck, your opponent has "the best deck".

The best deck we have in this meta is probably IzzetThopters, as it has no real bad matchups and very few dead draws, if any. It survives sweepers very well and has multiple attack vectors. It isn't quite as consistent as Gruul Ramp, mainly due to worse topdecks as the game progresses, but it's early/mid game is much, much better than ramp.

Gruul Ramp has several bad matchups and really has to draw well to have a chance...and it has to do it quickly in most of those situations. It really only has a single vector of attack, which is quite strong, but it can be countered.

But, back to the original point...neither Gruul Ramp nor IzzetThopters are the best because of any one card...it is all of the cards that they use put together as a whole. If we were to replace Moss with Natural Connection, I think the deck would suffer some power loss, but it would still be pretty strong.


Ramp is the best deck because it's the deck that gives you the best chance of winning a game. Doesn't matters if it has a bad early game if it's good enough to take the game to where you want. Doesn't matter is it has only one angle of attack if there aren't decks that can defend said angle properly. It doesn't matter if it has bad matchups if those are a bunch of 40/60's or are bad decks. What you're trying to sell here is a very wrong concept.

Mind you that Ramp is not the best by a large margin. There are decks close to it, Thopters included. But, it still is the deck that gives you the best chance of winning a game of Duels right now.


Trying once more to explain why it doesn't belong in the pool:


The reasons you gave aren't reasons why Moss doesn't belong. They are reasons why our pool is underpowered. There's a difference here.


So, what you are saying is we have a difference of opinion... and I'm right, and you're wrong :dropjaw: :P.

Seriously, though...it's all good, Fel. Now we can go on to some other conversation that will be meaningless in a month. :D

Rabs, currently non-rotating environment. I suspect it will have some sort of rotation or tier system within a year.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:17 am 
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Just wanted to add this little blurb; found on MTGsalvation, I was unable to find the original quote from WOTC:

Quote:
R&D perceives land destruction as bad for the game as it promotes non-interactive gameplay and prevents the player on the other end from even participating in the game, due to the inability to produce enough mana to cast his or her spells. Thus the cost to destroy a land has been increased. Whereas Stone Rain was the common land destruction effect at three mana present in every Core Set up to 9th Edition, it has since been replaced by effects such as Demolish or Tectonic Rift in the four mana range.

R&D no longer wants to support land destruction effects that can be played in large quantities and render a player incapable of playing the game [1], but still wants to provide cards that enable players to destroy certain lands that can be threatening otherwise. A prime example of this doctrine is Tectonic Edge, which was included in Worldwake to be a tournament viable answer to the Manlands in the same set.


The R&D opinion is that 4 mana for landdestruction is acceptable for competitive play moving forward. But here we have 4 mana indescriminate LD + ramp in an underpowered, casual format. At common. I rest my case. It's clearly an oversight.
It's funny, they were careful enough not to give us Transgress the Mind, since targetted discard according to R&D, is unappealing for casual players.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:45 am 
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Not this again ..... Moss isn't OP. It's cancerous for the current duels meta is what it is. If someone cannot see that , I just don't know what to say....

Regarding Ramp ..... its not the "best" per say but it is the Archetype which requires the least amount of effort/skill/creative juices to make a "Good" and competitive deck (that's not to say you can't get creative or "Funky" with ranp because of course you can, but if you come out and say my gruul ramp deck is a creative masterpiece it will be like saying my Golgari elves deck is a creative masterpiece) , alongside RDW. It's also one of the safest choices ( and perhaps the smartest if you are in it to win it) in a competitive format like a tournament.

Note: I am not talking about playing skill but deck building here. It's obvious due to the card pool and the whole "Theme" of BFZ that Ramp would be favored.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:03 pm 
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L2P threads really should be deleted...

PS: Moss is stupid.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:14 pm 
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Meh, I'll just make my standard statements here:

1) stop expecting all decks and color combinations to be equal, they aren't and won't be. This is true of any format. 1.5) stop expecting your deck to win every match.
2) stop making inferior midrange decks (often 3 color with no benefit, and no mana fixing) and expecting them to compete.
3) stop lying to yourselves about certain decks being easier to build or play, or I guess let me put that a different way: bad decks are hard to play, good decks are easy to play.
4) stop expecting ranked play to be casual. That's absurd, of course people playing ranked are going to play decks that win. That's the whole point.

And

5) Regarding moss, if you are playing a deck that does nothing until t3 or later you will lose to moss decks, and IMO, you deserve to lose to moss decks. If you are playing a deck with greedy mana requirements and you have no mana fixing, same deal, you will lose. Their entire game plan revolves around keeping you off of your t4/5 plays (or your double mana requirements), so if you have no answer to moss, and your deck's power starts around that time, you are prey.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:40 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:

3) stop lying to yourselves about certain decks being easier to build or play, or I guess let me put that a different way: bad decks are hard to play, good decks are easy to play.


If you actually think certain decks are not easier to build or play , I'm afraid you really don't understand this game. "Bad decks are hard to play, good decks are easy to play" ? .... what a nonsense statement.


DJ0045 wrote:
4) stop expecting ranked play to be casual. That's absurd, of course people playing ranked are going to play decks that win. That's the whole point.


Actually in my experience ( and that could easily be an isolated event) Ranked has been quite casual. Even the Ramp decks that I face are sub par most of the time. I mean even my allies deck does well in ranked which really should not be happening if ranked was actually competitive.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:57 pm 
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DJ0045 wrote:

5) Regarding moss, if you are playing a deck that does nothing until t3 or later you will lose to moss decks, and IMO, you deserve to lose to moss decks. If you are playing a deck with greedy mana requirements and you have no mana fixing, same deal, you will lose. Their entire game plan revolves around keeping you off of your t4/5 plays (or your double mana requirements), so if you have no answer to moss, and your deck's power starts around that time, you are prey.


The last part of that statement is correct; but you are just wrong about the underlined part. LD/stopping t4/5 plays is not the core aim of the moss deck. The entire gameplan revolves around getting to the most powerful cards in the format : Rolling thunder,Gaea's Revenge,Oblivion Sower, Ulamog.

The entire argument I'm trying to lay out is that, because of the underpowered nature of the format, the LD+ramp common in this deck has no opportunity cost to just slam on the table; since it helps your gameplan and you are extremely unlikely to get punished for it. The most powerful deck INCIDENTALLY bullies out mid-range and control with this card. It doesn't NEED it to be a great deck.

I'll just retire from this thread, it's all been said before; you can put your fingers in your ears and go la-la-la if you want.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:14 pm 
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"Bad decks". Sorry guys, no one gets to play Mardu, Jeskai, Grixis, 4 or 5 colour decks because if they don't match up to Moss they're bad.

Ridiculous statement.

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