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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:55 am 
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Last edited by ParadOxymoron on Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:28 am 
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Ralsten Vimur -
Planeswalker - Ralsten
[+1]: Tap up to one target creature. That creature doesn't untap during its controller's next untap phase and its controller loses 1 life.
[-3]: Until end of turn, creatures you control gains deathtouch and has "Whenever an opponent loses life, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature."
[-9]: Your opponents' life totals becomes 1.
[4]

Time Vamp planeswalker.

Backstory


Last edited by Confused on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:29 am, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:45 am 
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Yo undead things can't be sparky unless in EXTREMELY exceptional circumstances so why are two (three?) out of four submission so far undead things.

Also, Ruwin, your pronouns are kinda wonky in your description. You switch between first second and third tense :P (and you may want to tweak the character to be a little bit less Fisco, just a thought)

CKY, your idea seems interesting... any thoughts on how the Moonrise would actually give him god powers?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:52 am 
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Yo undead things can't be sparky unless in EXTREMELY exceptional circumstances

I'm sorry, but where is that written? I'm afraid this falls under the Rule of Cool for me. Undeath is an incredibly rich metaphor, and Planeswalkers are the most involved characters Magic has. I see no reason why combining them doesn't make sense.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:59 am 
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Because them's the rules. I don't make 'em, I just tell people when they break 'em. We have word of god that that's in the rules for the Spark, and I'd want really strong justification beyond "rule of cool" before I accepted a creative choice like that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:05 pm 
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I don't have a source (I'm sure Keeper can provide one) but the Planeswalker Spark is tied to the "soul", or more accurately, to the trait of "being alive". When you die, reanimation or no, the spark flees.

Sorin is a planeswalker because his particular brand of vampirisim is a disease/curse or something. He's not actually undead, just sick/cursed.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any planeswalkers in canon who are undead. That's rather telling in and of itself, no?

Binding your soul/spark to an undead vessel requires a degree of power that, currently, only Nicol Bolas MIGHT be capable of. It would have been simpler if planeswalkers retained the god-like powers they had before the mending, but as it stands, there really isn't the magic available or power necessary to accomplish that goal. Now, we have... two? Two undead planeswalkers in the M:EM canon at the moment, but one is sort of meta-canon because we can't use him, and the other was forced to use an entire city-state as a phylactery and is incapable of leaving the pocket plane he created - or even leave his throne - without immediately dying.

So, drawbacks! Drawbacks are the name of the game. Rule of Cool is good and all, but if you want a dead character to retain their spark, they circumstances, as Keeper said, need to be exceptional.

@Keeper: Ahaha, I wrote that late last night let me read through it again. T_T

EDIT: Oh god. Uh, ok, I fixed those rather blatant tense issues. As for Orsim being a great deal like Fisco, I don't think so, but I may not have displayed that very well. He's a lot more red in him than Fisco ever will, and a degree of savagery that the Shark lacks. His motivations aren't really far-reaching, and the money doesn't go towards anything but "buying whatever he wants".

Which is sort of a hard distinction to make in a little introductory blurb. Given additional context, I'm sure I could prove their diversity readily enough. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:23 pm 
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Sorin is a planeswalker because his particular brand of vampirisim is a disease/curse or something. He's not actually undead, just sick/cursed.

Omg, I'm sorry, but that's such ****. Do you guys actually fall for this stuff? A vampire is a vampire.

Just my opinion.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:27 pm 
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...There's nothing to fall for. This is established canon. There was an uncharted realms and everything. Innistrad vampirism is the direct result of a demonic pact struck by Sorin Markov's grandpappy. That's what happened. You don't have to die to become a vampire on innistrad like you would on Ulgrotha or Shandralar.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:32 pm 
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In fact, here's some links to relevant information!

Sorin's Homecoming

Edgar Markov

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:39 pm 
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Yeah, but if you're just opening the cards and not reading all that stuff like 99% of all Magic players, you'll see a vampire. So what you're saying is I can't have a vampire, because the vampire Wizards used isn't actually undead, i.e. the #1 defining characteristic of all vampires?

Sorin Markov

What are the first five words on that page?

Wizards wrote:
Sorin Markov is a vampire

This is really making my cheeks burn. Black is the color of death. It's symbol is a skull, for Pete's sake! What's the point of having a Black Planeswalker if it can't be undead?

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Last edited by ParadOxymoron on Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:43 pm 
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[quote=Doug Beyer]
Re: Zombie Planeswalker. (somebody brought it up on Maro's blog) In what way can a Walker lose their spark? Does death do it?

Death does it. Even though there is magic out there that can restore the dead to life, such magic won’t restore a dead planeswalker’s spark. At this point, if you die, no more planeswalking.

Therefore, for there to be an undead planeswalker, it would have to be one of those interesting exceptions I was just talking about. (As I’m fond of saying: caveats apply. A regular mage loses all her spellcasting and higher reasoning abilities when she comes back as a zombie, too — that is, unless she has done all the dark preparations for lichdom.)

You might think of Sorin Markov as such an exception to the no-undead-spark rule, although we’ve described Innistrad vampires as not truly undead. Sorin has done a whole lot of livin’ (thanks to the longevity advantages of his vampirism), but I believe he has never actually died.
[/quote]
There you go.

Also, for the record, stuff like elementals, demons, and angels similarly can't have the spark. Golems? Can't have the spark.

There are exceptions but the ONE notable exception in-canon has a spark due to centuries of meddling by an extremely powerful planeswalker, multiple weird artifacts with odd corner case abilities, and the core of a plane that literally was built to be a spark transfer machine. Oh, and there's Ob but he took the form of a demon--he wasn't a demon to begin with. He was trapped in that form when he lost his spark.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:47 pm 
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I'm a Classics major; that's probably why I'm getting so upset about this. Word of God in a 20-year-old game is nothing compared to centuries of folklore saying that vampires are undead.

In improv, we always say "Yes, and?" What I mean by that is that we add more ingredients to the pot with every line, and never take any ingredients away. You two are using a plot device that reminds me of the work of prequel George Lucas to defend not adding one of the most crucial ingredients of black's flavorful identity to a character (and I say character because their identity as a character is more important that their identity as a planeswalker) whose purpose in the story is to represent the attitude of . Do you get what I'm saying? Does that make any sense at all?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:49 pm 
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I... Never said he wasn't a vampire. I just said he's not undead. Because he isn't, because you can't be undead and be a planeswalker. (Except under extreme circumstances)

I'm not saying the compromise Wizards came up with was a GOOD one but it is the canon one, so we're sort of stuck with it.

And I'd have to argue about the defining characteristic of vampire's being undead. Their number ONE characteristic is that they drink the blood of sapients in order to survive, and I'd have to say that mind-control and seduction are more relevant secondary traits than being undead is.

Black, as a color, has a lot more interesting depth than just "death magic and undead". It's not really hard to come up with a black planeswalker who isn't undead. Really, the restriction makes it possible to create more varied and interesting planeswalkers.

I, personally, don't want every other black planeswalker to be a corpse. It would get boring.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:51 pm 
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Hmm, Keeper kinda has a point though. I forgot about the spark thing myself actually.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:52 pm 
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Well, I've spoken my piece. If it's that important for you to have a work-around, Myrteline's story is exactly the same, except instead of dying and becoming a vampire, she gets bitten by a vampire and her spark ignites just before she dies. That's literally all you have to change, if the "undead" label is really what you're so opposed to.

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Last edited by ParadOxymoron on Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:55 pm 
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Honestly not a big fan of the "yes and" thing. It's... fine if you're doing improv, but improv =/= actual storytelling, and sometimes ideas don't actually work.

I don't know what to tell you, Parad. This is the canon that you're working with. If the rules of the game, and the rules of the color pie, and the principles of good design are all things we're willing to follow, the rules of the storyline should be treated the exact same way.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:58 pm 
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It's... It's not that it's important to us. I could think of a hundred other things about the Multiverse that are more important to me than "being dead prevents you from having the spark". It's not about what's important, it's about what is consistent with the setting. It has been stated, and displayed, that dead people cannot have sparks. If you die, that's it. Ergo, no undead, because first you have to die.

I don't really get the ingredients thing because we are adding plenty and not taking anything away at all. It's just that the undead thing was never added in the first place.

As for your workaround, that's not really a workaround, because for all vampires except Innistrad vampires, death is a prerequisite. See Zendikar and Ulgrotha, for example. I'm not saying that this is a good thing, and I'm not saying I particularly enjoy the restriction. But it's what we have to work with.

As MaRo is fond of saying, "restrictions breed creativity." Let's not get up in arms over established canon, and instead figure out how to make the most of what we have.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:00 pm 
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I'm just saying, the thing that makes characters so interesting is that they lose their soul, but then somehow get it back. You could even make it so Myrtaline's spark doesn't ignite until the Moon actually rises. The point is that she does the unspeakable (kills her parents) but then through an arc of redemption becomes a good guy again. That's all I'm really arguing. I just think that dying and then literally being reborn as a monster is the most effective way to demonstrate losing one's soul.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:04 pm 
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I thought the whole point of this being a community project was that we didn't have to follow canon to the letter. When I suggested Tezzeret, people freaked out because he was canon. So why is it that we're not allowed to acknowledge the existence of canon characters, and yet still simultaneously bound by the rules they follow?

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Last edited by ParadOxymoron on Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:10 pm 
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Yeah, it's a fairly demonstrative, if heavy-handed, bit of storytelling - but she can't lose her soul and still be a planeswalker. Here's a quesiton - why does she have to be a planeswalker? Why not make her a legendary creature instead? Planeswalkers need to have a reason to wander the multiverse. If she's going to have an arc that begins and completes on Starstill, with no reason for her to leave afterwards, there's no need for her to be a planeswalker.

Which means she's perfect for a legendary creature instead! And those have far fewer rules defining them than the nature of the spark does.

@Canon: We have to follow canon's rules, because we are using canon's setting (the Multiverse) which means that magic has to be internally consistent across all facets of existence, as long as we are in the Multiverse.

We, however, avoid using Canon's characters because characters are fluid and constantly changing. The setting is static, but the characters can change and be redefined, or die. We would rather not conflict with what is established in canon. Which is the crux of the issue:

We don't want to conflict with established canon. Undead planeswalkers does that. Tezzeret showing up does that (though I never actually heard anything about that?). Eldrazi being in the set does that. Canon compliance is just as necessary as good card design and mechanical understanding.

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