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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:28 pm 
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Hi one and all. I've been roaming the forums for quite a while now trying out some of the lovely decks I've found and have finally gotten round to posting my current favourite.

It's a combination of a Boros token deck: http://forum.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=10293&start=120#p389767

and this Naya ramp deck: http://forum.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=10305&start=120#p407320

, both of which I have thoroughly enjoyed playing.

The reason I tried combining them is that I played against a deck that dropped 2 From Beyond and 2 Valor in Akros. Funnily enough, I got beasted after that, but it set me thinking that they might fit well in Naya ramp. Initially I thought to pack some cards in there that produced two creatures at a time but that didn't seem to work as well for me, so here is what I have come up with. Apologies if the formatting is odd. It's my first time using BB code.

Naya Tokens

Creatures

3 x Blisterpod
4 x Elvish Visionary
1 x Reclamation Sage
1 x Greenwarden of Murasa
2 x Emeria Shepherd
1 x Omnath, Locus of Rage
1 x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Sorceries/Instants

1 x Rolling Thunder
3 x Natural Connection
2 x Radiant Flames
2 x Planar Outburst
4 x Angelic Edict
2 x Nissa's Renewal

Enchantments

2 x Valor in Akros
3 x Retreat to Emeria
2 x From Beyond

Planeswalkers

1 x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

Lands

4 x Plains
2 x Mountain
6 x Forest
2 x Cinder Glade
2 x Canopy Vista
2 x Clifftop Retreat
2 x Sunpetal Grove
4 x Evolving Wilds


I've had great fun playing around with this and won more than I have lost in a ratio of about 2:1. Like the Boros tokens deck, it sits around and then slaps you in the face a lot. Any hints and tips would be appreciated as it's definitely a work in progress :)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:28 pm 
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I have tried a tokens-into-ramp strategy before and to me it felt a bit awkward, but it did well enough for InfamousGemini in the Xbox tourney. I thought for a Naya tokens deck I would instead try something more similar to Peepy's deck. It seemed to me that I could build something fairly similar overall, but less liable to being colour screwed because Naya has friendlier colour fixing and card draw options than Jeskai does. This is still a work in progress, but there are so many good options to choose from in these colours that it's hard to nail down a clear favourite configuration.

The philosophy here is primarily to go really wide by putting in as many 3-for-1 spells and creatures as possible, which gives the deck a lot of power cards to work with. These power cards are mostly 4-drops, though, so there's not a ton of action at the 2-drop stage and the deck can be a tad slow to get going sometimes.

2 x Might of the Masses

2 x Felidar Cub
4 x Elvish Visionary
2 x Evolutionary Leap
3 x Twin Bolt

1 x Lantern Scout
1 x Firemantle Mage
3 x Thopter Engineer
4 x Ghirapur Gearcrafter
3 x Kytheon's Tactics

2 x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3 x Eyeless Watcher
2 x Retreat to Emeria
3 x Unified Front
1 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

3 x Plains
1 x Island
4 x Mountain
2 x Forest
2 x Cinder Glade
2 x Canopy Vista
2 x Rootbound Crag
2 x Clifftop Retreat
2 x Sunpetal Grove
4 x Evolving Wilds


Any thoughts are welcome. Is it really better to go super-wide like this rather than sticking with something a bit faster to get going like Boros tokens? I don't yet know.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:20 pm 
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You're gonna have mana problems


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:48 am 
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Peepy's deck was admitted to be mana-greedy; this one is meant to be less greedy, but still might be somewhat greedy. If necessary, the island could come out (only there for unified front) and one could swap a Tactics for an Emeria or a Might of the Masses. One could swap out all the Tactics for Valor but I'm thinking in this deck that might just trade one problem for a different one.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:31 am 
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Okay let me get my nerd glasses on and explain why I say you're gonna have a bad time


(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)

Okay so in a 60 card deck let's look at the number of colored mana symbols you'll need to play all of your cards on curve 90% of the time

So let's assume on turn 2 you want to be playing cub or visionary, this means you need at least 13 of both :w: and :g: you have 9 :w: and 12 :g: (you've also got evolving wilds but those are only useful on your first turn in fact in an aggressive deck like this I'd rather see no wilds)

But let's get to my actual problem here, the nalaars and Gideon (and kytheon's tactics to an extent)

To play a double mana symbol on turn 4 you need 18 sources like I said you have 9 :w: and only 8 :r: although you could maybe include the wilds into the math here, I think the deck might not actually be to bad if you cut the double mana symbols and cruddy cards like Gearcrafter (seriously a 3 mana card that's completely killed by twinbolt? In this meta?)

Could be good but you'll very rarely play your truly impactful cards on time


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:44 am 
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Okay let me get my nerd glasses on and explain why I say you're gonna have a bad time


(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)

To play a double mana symbol on turn 4 you need 18 sources like I said you have 9 :w: and only 8 :r: although you could maybe include the wilds into the math here, I think the deck might not actually be to bad if you cut the double mana symbols and cruddy cards like Gearcrafter (seriously a 3 mana card that's completely killed by twinbolt? In this meta?)

Could be good but you'll very rarely play your truly impactful cards on time


Babs, a 3 mana card that's completely killed by twin bolt in this meta, like Eldrazi Skyspawner? Might want to adjust that a bit.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:45 am 
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Hmm i'm sure there is some good math behind those claims but logically no multicolored deck will ever have 18 sources of one color and in a tri-color you will probably not get 13 either unless you have a dominant color and splashes. That's why you need mana fixers so you can search for the colors relevant to your current hand, or lots of draw.

I guess the point is that tri-color aggro decks will very rarely work as they cannot curve out in a reliable way so they need ways to delay while the land falls into place and in an acid moss meta that is suicide.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:09 am 
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Gearcrafter and Skyspawner are not in the same ballpark for comparison. Two power in the air and mana acceleration is a hell of a lot better than a Piker and a Thopter. Skyspawner is excellent and Gearcrafter is unplayable trash. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:24 am 
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Hakeem928 wrote:
Gearcrafter and Skyspawner are not in the same ballpark for comparison. Two power in the air and mana acceleration is a hell of a lot better than a Piker and a Thopter. Skyspawner is excellent and Gearcrafter is unplayable trash. :)


Completely same ballpark, my man.

The both produce 3 power, each make a flyer, each card is countered by a Twin Bolt. Skyspawner i superior due to making a bigger power flyer (2 vs. 1) and gives mana acceleration, but the fact and point of the matter is I was pointing out there was another card for 3 mana that was completely countered by Twin Bolt. It just happens to not be cruddy (by the way, Babs, +1 on using the word "cruddy").

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:38 am 
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But spawned isn't a 3 mana card, more like 2.5ish cause it produces :c:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:47 am 
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But spawned isn't a 3 mana card, more like 2.5ish cause it produces :c:


Well, if you find a way to cast it for 2.5 mana, you go right ahead and let me know how. Magic is all about breaking rules, but whole numbers is one thing they haven't delved into as of yet.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:01 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:06 am 
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Hakeem928 wrote:


Bringing up an unglued card as an example is like saying liberal cities are a great place to live.

I'll refer you to my avatar's shirt for my response.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:09 am 
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It's an Unhinged card.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:14 am 
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Hakeem928 wrote:
It's an Unhinged card.


Unhinged, Unglued...don't make me get my Denimwalking Minotaur out!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:59 pm 
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Skyspawner only produces mana if you are not using its token as an aggressive attacker. ;) The Gearcrafters are direct replacements for Skyspawners in Peepy's deck, and I don't recall him ever preferring to sac a scion for mana to using it as an attacker. If you can think of a critter that better suits the spot in these colours, given the focus on going wide, do tell.

This deck doesn't seem too concerned about T2 plays. Like Peepy's deck, there are only 6 T2 cards not counting removal. Concerns about mana for T4 plays are more apropos. I went with these colours in part to not need doubles in all three colours, so I appreciate the potential issue. But while I'm hearing your concerns I'm not seeing any specific suggested improvements to make that are in line with what the deck wants to do -- short of collapsing to two colours. While I have other 2-colour aggro token decks to play, the point this time around is to run unified front, and you don't do that in 2 colours.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:17 pm 
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ZedF wrote:
Skyspawner only produces mana if you are not using its token as an aggressive attacker. ;) The Gearcrafters are direct replacements for Skyspawners in Peepy's deck, and I don't recall him ever preferring to sac a scion for mana to using it as an attacker. If you can think of a critter that better suits the spot in these colours, given the focus on going wide, do tell.

This deck doesn't seem too concerned about T2 plays. Like Peepy's deck, there are only 6 T2 cards not counting removal. Concerns about mana for T4 plays are more apropos. I went with these colours in part to not need doubles in all three colours, so I appreciate the potential issue. But while I'm hearing your concerns I'm not seeing any specific suggested improvements to make that are in line with what the deck wants to do -- short of collapsing to two colours. While I have other 2-colour aggro token decks to play, the point this time around is to run unified front, and you don't do that in 2 colours.


Actually, you can. If you really must run Unified Front, just do it in a 2-color shell with extra lands of different colors (ie, check lands, battle lands). Even if you only Front for 2, that's 2 tokens for 1 card. Not very mana efficient, but that really isn't necessary.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:28 pm 
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Yeah really just run RW token and play extra lands for unified front, much cleaner

Also sometimes the replacement isn't the card with a similar effect, sometimes you just replace a good card with another good card, (hint: run more firemantle mages)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:55 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:11 pm 
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Hmm i'm sure there is some good math behind those claims but logically no multicolored deck will ever have 18 sources of one color and in a tri-color you will probably not get 13 either unless you have a dominant color and splashes. That's why you need mana fixers so you can search for the colors relevant to your current hand, or lots of draw.

I guess the point is that tri-color aggro decks will very rarely work as they cannot curve out in a reliable way so they need ways to delay while the land falls into place and in an acid moss meta that is suicide.



Actually I'm pretty sure Babs took the '18' sources directly from Dr. Karsten's article.

His tables, when taking into account a few premises (read to understand better) show you need 18 sources for double colours on t4 if you want to curve that card in 90 % of cases. She neglects to add though, that fetchlands count for both colours, and cheap cantrips count for 1/2 to 1/3 to 1/4 th coloured source (depending on quality). Add to that the free mulligan in duels and the fact that there are way less 4 offs of the dual coloured cards in question, and the end result is that the 18 is a bit exagerated.

I try to hit AT LEAST 13/14 in tricolour decks when I include Rogues or the like; but if a deck really leans on certain cards, 16 should be attainable in most cases in Duels, but mainly in dual colour decks (those numbers include cantrips and vines). I've done 17/18 but all situations involved Consul's Lieutenant and / or Knight of the White Orchid in azorius tempo or control. You wanna hit those things t2 :p

Example : 4 colour Spectrum mill deck with +- 16 Blue (cantrips online, t4 double costs, t5 double costs, t8 triple cost) , 15 Green (manafixing and cantrips online, t5 double costs), 14 black (for effectively only 6 cards) and 9 red (probably need to add one/ 2 for a green and black) for 5 cards : http://forum.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewtopic.php?p=418806#p418806


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