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 Post subject: Am I Reading This Right?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:06 pm 
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So there've been a few changes to the rules. But there's one in particular that interests me more than anything else. Because it involves cards I used to play with because I thought they worked a certain way, then I found they didn't work that way, and if I'm reading this correctly they work the way I used to think they worked.

Comp Rules wrote:
614.16. Some replacement effects apply “if an effect would create one or more tokens” or “if an effect
would put one or more counters on a permanent.” These replacement effects apply if the effect of a
resolving spell or ability creates a token or puts a counter on a permanent, and they also apply if
another replacement or prevention effect does so, even if the original event being modified wasn’t
itself an effect.


Does this mean that Doubling Season now doubles the counters on Vivid Grove when I play it from my hand? As opposed to needing to jump through hoops with Crop Rotation or Walking Atlas to get double counters.

And if it does mean that

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:27 pm 
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It sure seems like it would double the counters on Vivid Grove played from your hand. And, according to Gatherer, this "enters the battlefield with" is specifically called out on Doubling Season:

Quote:
Doubling Season affects cards that “enter the battlefield with” a certain number of counters. Triskelion, for example, would enter the battlefield with six +1/+1 counters on it rather than three.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:31 pm 
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Edacade wrote:
So there've been a few changes to the rules. But there's one in particular that interests me more than anything else. Because it involves cards I used to play with because I thought they worked a certain way, then I found they didn't work that way, and if I'm reading this correctly they work the way I used to think they worked.

Comp Rules wrote:
614.16. Some replacement effects apply “if an effect would create one or more tokens” or “if an effect
would put one or more counters on a permanent.” These replacement effects apply if the effect of a
resolving spell or ability creates a token or puts a counter on a permanent, and they also apply if
another replacement or prevention effect does so, even if the original event being modified wasn’t
itself an effect.


Does this mean that Doubling Season now doubles the counters on Vivid Grove when I play it from my hand? As opposed to needing to jump through hoops with Crop Rotation or Walking Atlas to get double counters.

And if it does mean that

Doubling Season has, as far as I am aware, always worked that way. the ruling Yarium quoted is from 2005.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:48 pm 
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No. Previous to this rules update, playing a land from your hand wasn't an effect, so replacement effects didn't count as effects for the purpose of doubling counters with Doubling Season. Because it specifically says "If an effect would place one or more counters on a permanent you control..."

Hold on, I can't remember if it was the mothership or here that I asked for clarification on that...Doing a search (not that I really have to announce that since I haven't hit submit on this).

Must have been the mothership, cause all I find on here are things that aren't in reference to Vivid Grove or similar lands.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:04 pm 
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Edacade's right, Doubling Season did not work on a vivid land played from your hand before this rules change. The reasons are obscure and weird, which is why this is a very good change.

Basically, Doubling Season specifically mentions "effects" and the rules have a specific definition of what counts as an effect.
Quote:
609.1. An effect is something that happens in the game as a result of a spell or ability. When a spell, activated ability, or triggered ability resolves, it may create one or more one-shot or continuous effects. Static abilities may create one or more continuous effects. Text itself is never an effect.

Playing a land causes a land to enter the battlefield from your hand, but it's not an effect. Vivid Grove has a replacement effect that modifies how it enters the battlefield, but if it's not entering because of an effect, the source of those counters is not an effect. (The replacement effect itself isn't the source of the counters, since it's just modifying another event.)

So if you put Vivid Grove onto the battlefield with Walking Atlas, that's an effect, and Doubling Season applies. If you play it from your hand, though, that's not an effect, so it didn't apply.

But now the rules specifically state that it does apply there, so this bizarre corner case no longer exists.

There was a similar interaction between Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and Doubling Season, where a creature killed by Terminate would create two Zombies, but a creature killed by damage would only create one. This is also affected by this rule change. (You'll always get two Zombies.)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:16 pm 
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Oh wow, I never thought about that...I wonder how many people were using Anointed Procession and Kalitas in Standard because they didn't think of that interaction? Makes me glad the Kalitas players around here weren't able to get their hands on any Processions, cause I might have missed that interaction as well.

Not that I have to worry about it now.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:11 pm 
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A few people asked about it (and getting negative responses), but I don't think anyone was seriously trying it.

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