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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:17 pm 
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Just beat the AI for the first time largely thanks to the crashers who I played ahead of Garrison and Insult. The haste was huge and along with them and removal, they locked down the board with Harsh Mentor, i like

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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:03 pm 
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Akoum Firebird!!

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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:38 pm 
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Now 7-0 with There Will Be Blood, Cucho. Love it

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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:51 am 
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Nice piloting!
How did the Kari expertise worked? I swaped for the firebird, and I'm pretty happy with it 3/3 flyer with haste and recursion its right on the game plan :D

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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:03 am 
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oh thank goodness, cuz I was just sitting on the Expertise, and never using it. Ever. The only situation where I'd like to take his creature instead of killing it is if it means I'm going to swing for lethal OR if I have a 2 mana spell to play (which isn't often). One time the stars lined up and I had a Harsh Mentor in hand, but he only had a 1 strength creature which I'd rather just exert the crop duster guy to avoid anyway. I'd MUCH prefer a 3/3 hasted evasion creature. I'm going to make that swap tonight, I think that's way better.

If Karl Zev Expertise could take a vehicle which would be automatically crewed, then it would be slightly better, but I don't have the manpower to crew something I steal most of the time. I'd often rather swing.

I need to remember I have Collective Defiance in there now, which means if I have too much land, i need to hold it up in case I draw Collective Defiance to swap my hand.

i find myself playing Insult really early more and more to give me way more options later. I like having the 3 mana removal spell in my yard for an emergency later (shock to teh face too!). But the value you get from Insult if you have 6 or more mana is absolutely insane.

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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:23 am 
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Insult should be used early in my experience, especially when it means hitting for 6-10 damage and putting opponent at burn range.

I'll post my Inciter RDW energy build later, because its just nuts. Inciter is crazy because it makes you hit 1 turn earlier which is like being on the play even when your on the draw. It also punishes opponents for tapping out in the first 4 turns. I even play Embermaw Hellion and it is awesome when hasted.
Also have a boros build that is also good and has more staying power, although the mana is less reliable.

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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:25 am 
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Yay I was hoping you toss us your latest RDW!! :D

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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:14 pm 
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Haven_pt wrote:
Insult should be used early in my experience, especially when it means hitting for 6-10 damage and putting opponent at burn range.

I'll post my Inciter RDW energy build later, because its just nuts. Inciter is crazy because it makes you hit 1 turn earlier which is like being on the play even when your on the draw. It also punishes opponents for tapping out in the first 4 turns. I even play Embermaw Hellion and it is awesome when hasted.
Also have a boros build that is also good and has more staying power, although the mana is less reliable.

Yeah, I made an in Inciter version of Socur's Black Delver and it just kills. Love that card.


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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:52 pm 
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As promised, here's the build:

Inciter Energy RDW

Creature(26)
2 x Goblin Glory Chaser
4 x Bloodlust Inciter
4 x Thriving Grubs
2 x Aether Chaser
2 x Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
2 x Harsh Mentor
2 x Hanweir Garrison
2 x Lathnu Hellion
1 x Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
3 x Scrapper Champion
2 x Embermaw Hellion

Instant(6)
3 x Harnessed Lightning
3 x Fiery Temper

Split(2)
2 x Insult

Planeswalker(1)
1 x Chandra, Torch of Defiance

Artifact(2)
2 x Smuggler's Copter

Land(23)
2 x Looming Spires
19 x Mountain
2 x Hanweir Battlements

To view this deck go to: https://www.magicduelshelper.com/deckli ... 5dcf7a3fbb

Created using Magic Duels Helper: http://www.magicduelshelper.com

The deck is built around the inciters. The idea was to use all the creatures that would be so much better if they only had haste and cut the ones that already have haste (except Lathnu Hellion).
Any openning hand with an inciter is usually good. Most ops won't waste removal on Inciter to save it for bigger threats, so he usually lives and when he does T2 Kari Zev, T3 garrison, T4 scrapper, T5 Embermaw can be brutal.
The deck is Light on burn, because the extra speed from the Inciters usually means your 1 step ahead and can out race any deck with your swarm.
The side plan is energy. Drop a T3 Hellion and keep feeding it with Grubs, chasers, scrappers and Lightnings. If the hellions die, use the energy with whatever is left over, its all good.
Use those Insults early, T4 or T5 if it means taking huge chunk of life out of your opponent. Insult is also awesome with flip Chandra, netting 7 Damage and flipping her with just one spell.
When inciters have nobody to haste, they make good Copter pilots, but don't just go and suicide attack with them, you want to keep the threat of dropping something nasty and attacking that very turn very real, especially to keep opp from tapping out or to punish them if they do.

I know most of you consider scrappers meh, but with haste they wreck face, doing 6 damage T4. I could be persuaded to cut 1, maybe for Hazoret, but this deck can usually win before you run out of cards.

Mentors are anti-vehicle tech.

Enjoy!

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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:08 am 
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Got overwhelmed with options at 6 mana last night. I'm at 2 life, he's at 14 or 16. We both have lots of creatures. If I swing, I cripple him but then he swings for lethal. I can recurr firebird, I can attack with manticore and then embalm him to go face or removal. I can flip Garrison. I do that in the end and swing for lethal cuz crop duster stops a blocker. So much fun all the avenues of success

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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:39 am 
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Nice piloting!
How did the Kari expertise worked? I swaped for the firebird, and I'm pretty happy with it 3/3 flyer with haste and recurtion its right on the game plan :D

My current thinking is running Firebird over Hazoret. Too often that's just dead weight in my hand or on the board; I think this build just doesn't burn through a hand quickly enough to make it good here.

Expertise isn't great, you're right. I was thinking about the problems of running into big creatures, but there's enough evasion and direct damage here that I don't think it's our biggest problem. New thoughts on that last slot:
Call of the Full Moon
Key to the City
Walking Ballista
Invigorated Rampage


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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:58 am 
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Haven_pt wrote:

I will give it a go and see how it behaves :D

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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:02 am 
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New thoughts on that last slot:
Call of the Full Moon
Key to the City
Walking Ballista
Invigorated Rampage


Key to the City might work, but the build is pretty tight right now, I like Hazoret because you can always start burning your cards to active him, so I would not know what to cut ATM.

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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:17 am 
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Don't know what won the tournaments, but here's the best deck in duels:

Lands:
3 x Aether Hub
8 x Island
4 x Mountain
2 x Sulfur Falls
2 x Highland Lake
2 x Wandering Fumarole
1 x Glacial Fortress
2 x Prairie Stream
1 x Needle Spires

Answers:
3 x Magma Spray
2 x Fiery Impulse
3 x Censor
2 x Essence Scatter
3 x Harnessed Lightning
2 x Broken Concentration
2 x Scatter to the Winds
2 x Radiant Flames
2 x Cast Out
2 x Confirm Suspicions

Draw:
3 x Glimmer of Genius
2 x Hieroglyphic Illumination
1 x Pull from Tomorrow
(well there's answers that also function as draw all over the place ofc)

Threats:
1 x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 x Dynavolt Tower
1 x Nahiri the Harbinger
1 x Disciple of the Ring
1 x Chandra, Flamecaller
1 x Torrential Gearhulk

Sideboard:
1 x Magma Spray
1 x Kozilek's Return
3 x Dispel
2 x Thing in the Ice
1 x Pull from Tomorrow
3 x Blessed Alliance
2 x Glorybringer
1 x Kefnet the Mindful
1 x Dynavolt Tower



The most FUN deck is probably Temur Toss-a-Drake, however as amazing as that deck is I suspect it to not do so well in a truly competitive environment (it might, it's way better than most people think!), whilst this certainly does :)


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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:06 am 
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Good deck? Sure. The single best deck in Duels? I think that would give any deck in the game too much credit, even if it is in the arguably best archetype (and I do think UR(W) control is probably the best archetype).

Regarding your deck, I believe you're running WAY too few White sources and can't fathom why you're not running Evolving Wilds (they're 100% better than Highland Lake and one of each Basic) and one Plains; 7 White sources seem too few and that's counting the Hubs.

There also are some main deck choices I don't agree with, but YMMV there I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:27 am 
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There's enough white :)

7 basic white (hubs are effectively tricolor lands in this deck) combined with the drawspells and cycling typically finds you one around t4 -5. If you need to Radiant Flames t3 and don't have a white.... well what have you been doing with all the 1 and 2 mana interaction that you HAVE to flames for 3 t3 :p
I can't remember the last time this was an issue with this deck, and I have over a hundred games with it. I'm sure it happens :)

I'm running Duals UR over wilds because the deck is almost entirely UR. You only run 25 land here, and you want to make a drop every turn, I really don't mind drawing lands, so the thinning is imho less important than the consistency to have a nice UR manabase that's 80% untapped from t2 onwards (provided you played a tapland t1). On top of this, Evolving wilds only gets one color so can screw you over when you have a multiple spell turn.
This isn't a jeskai deck. It's just running 2 white catchall cards, and 1 walker and very occasionally needs a white for flames. You will only have a white card to cast t4 50% of the time. If you cycled a censor by then you are 80% to have a white source (on the play!).

Maindeck card choices are always debatable, but I wouldn't mind defending the picks, it's a bit quiet here :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:21 am 
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This isn't a jeskai deck. It's just running 2 white catchall cards, and 1 walker and very occasionally needs a white for flames. You will only have a white card to cast t4 50% of the time. If you cycled a censor by then you are 80% to have a white source (on the play!).


I'm playing even less White than you do (my catch-all cards are blue and I don't run the third manland), yet Wilds+Plains I think are still necessary to ensure you can Flames if you need to.
The 3 power are not necessarily needed turn 3, they're needed later down the line; but I do want to have White available turn 6 if I have to sweep a board of Zombies buffed by Lord of the Accursed/Mastery. There are some games where you don't have time to play your selection spells to get there, so I don't want to rely on them; and I would want to do so even less if I also run Cast Out.

Maindeck card choices are always debatable, but I wouldn't mind defending the picks, it's a bit quiet here


Well, alright.

-Fiery Impulse. You're not killing a Copter with it early, and while the third point of damage is relevant later I'd still prefer the exile provided by Magma Spray. Furthermore, I don't wan too much early interaction as especially Impulse and Spray get a bit worse late. I'm running the fourth Magma Spray and the 26th land over them; could see cutting the fourth Spray for a tech card (Blessed Alliance maybe)

-Cast Out. As stated I like to remain in my main colour with catch-all removals and run Commit // Memory. The card has a few advantages over Cast Out (being able to get flashed back by Jace/Hulk, not being vulnerable to enchant removal, added utility for the rare cases you want to cast Memory (yes, these do turn up)). While you need a counterspell ready to stop the threat hitting the board again, you also need that to protect the Cast Out enchantment - possibly more.

-Dynavolt Tower. Since your deck's win condition generally is not to burn the opponent out, I think Tower doesn't deal enough damage to close out a game on its own, and it doesn't do enough to affect the board state late game. I think Jace, Unraveler of Secrets works a lot better as a threat - as long as he sticks you're generating card or tempo advantage. Tower generates neither.

-Hieroglyphic Illumination. Yes, draw is good, but Glimmer is better and I want an additional counterspell. My list runs the second Pull and the third Broken Concentration over them.


For reference, my list:
Creatures (3):
1 x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 x Disciple of the Ring
1 x Torrential Gearhulk

Planeswalkers (3):
1 x Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1 x Chandra, Flamecaller

Sorceries (2):
2 x Radiant Flames

Split (2):
2 x Commit // Memory

Instants (26):
4 x Magma Spray
3 x Censor
2 x Essence Scatter
3 x Harnessed Lightning
2 x Scatter to the Winds
3 x Broken Concentration
3 x Glimmer of Genius
2 x Confirm Suspicions
2 x Pull from Tomorrow

Lands (26)
1 x Plains
4 x Island
4 x Mountain
2 x Wandering Fumarole
2 x Praerie Stream
2 x Glacial Fortress
2 x Clifftop Retreat
2 x Sulfur Falls
3 x Aether Hub
4 x Evolving Wilds


Sideboard is untested for me, but it'd look similar to yours:

2 x Dispel
2 x Thing in the Ice
3 x Blessed Alliance
2 x Spell Queller
1 x Kefnet, the Mindful
2 x Dynavolt Tower
1 x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 x Glorybringer


Not sure about it; maybe Cast Out or Tutelage deserve a spot.

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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:37 am 
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i LOVE it when people finally get around to deciding what the best deck is duels is. I can't wait to try Rabble's build. Should be fun. How's Nahiri a win condition?

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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:10 am 
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IMO Nahiri is more of a utility walker than a wincon (still a must-deal with threat though), but she absolutely excels at that utility role and her ultimate still puts you ahead by a lot - tutoring up a Walker (JVP can immediately flip), a Hulk with bonus spell (that returns to your hand so you get another one) or a card that locks up the game is pretty great. Definitely worth the slot and splash.

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 Post subject: Re: The Final 30
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:27 pm 
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Modulo wrote:
This isn't a jeskai deck. It's just running 2 white catchall cards, and 1 walker and very occasionally needs a white for flames. You will only have a white card to cast t4 50% of the time. If you cycled a censor by then you are 80% to have a white source (on the play!).


I'm playing even less White than you do (my catch-all cards are blue and I don't run the third manland), yet Wilds+Plains I think are still necessary to ensure you can Flames if you need to.
The 3 power are not necessarily needed turn 3, they're needed later down the line; but I do want to have White available turn 6 if I have to sweep a board of Zombies buffed by Lord of the Accursed/Mastery. There are some games where you don't have time to play your selection spells to get there, so I don't want to rely on them; and I would want to do so even less if I also run Cast Out.


Assuming on the play, t6, with 1 draw effect factored in, no further cycling:

Population size
60
Number of successes in population
7
Sample size
14
Number of successes in sample (x)
1
Hypergeometric Probability: P(X = 1)
0.34
Cumulative Probability: P(X > 1)
0.52

That's 86% of games where you will have the white t6.... if you go up to 8 sources you can make it 90. As I said, I haven't felt the need. YMMV


Maindeck card choices are always debatable, but I wouldn't mind defending the picks, it's a bit quiet here


Well, alright.

-Fiery Impulse. You're not killing a Copter with it early, and while the third point of damage is relevant later I'd still prefer the exile provided by Magma Spray. Furthermore, I don't wan too much early interaction as especially Impulse and Spray get a bit worse late. I'm running the fourth Magma Spray and the 26th land over them; could see cutting the fourth Spray for a tech card (Blessed Alliance maybe)

What are the cards in duels you NEED magma spray for? there's 4 nasty zombies and 2 scroungers in total.... this build runs 3 other exile effects. If anything the split should be 3/2 in Pulse's favor. The 3 damage from pulse is extremely relevant for you to be able to clean up the board whilst progressing the gameplan (keeping up mana and drawing cards). Killing that copter for after countering their 4 drop is clutch. Running a 26th land over the 5th 1 mana removal spell may not be wrong... but unlike your build, we have the extra early draw to play the lower land count


-Cast Out. As stated I like to remain in my main colour with catch-all removals and run Commit // Memory. The card has a few advantages over Cast Out (being able to get flashed back by Jace/Hulk, not being vulnerable to enchant removal, added utility for the rare cases you want to cast Memory (yes, these do turn up)). While you need a counterspell ready to stop the threat hitting the board again, you also need that to protect the Cast Out enchantment - possibly more.

Here I think it's really close. I ran 2 commit before. I think you play cast out for ladder, but Commit in tournament, because maybe 1 guy in 10 plays rec sages on ladder. This is the main selling point for commit, not the memory side, when I played commit, I think the fabled 'flash back memory EOT with hulk' made a difference once in like 30 games, and I can't remember the last time I won a game after hard-casting memory in a draw-go deck. Cast out's cycling is marginal in a deck with little white sources, but it comes up way mroe often than memory winning you the game :evil:.

-Dynavolt Tower. Since your deck's win condition generally is not to burn the opponent out, I think Tower doesn't deal enough damage to close out a game on its own, and it doesn't do enough to affect the board state late game. I think Jace, Unraveler of Secrets works a lot better as a threat - as long as he sticks you're generating card or tempo advantage. Tower generates neither.

I found Tower extremely helpful to shorten the clock or keep the board (including resolved walkers) under control. This deck generates ALOT of energy once it's running full steam. You can tutor it with Nahiri if your other wincons are somehow unavailable (has happened in control mirrors). Tower costs 3 and comes down t5/6 with protection backup. Jace is the more powerful card but it's a gamble... if you have a boardstate where Jace's bounce doesn't cut it; he's horrible. Floor of tower is extremely high compared to the floor on jace (for the mana investment). YMMV

-Hieroglyphic Illumination. Yes, draw is good, but Glimmer is better and I want an additional counterspell. My list runs the second Pull and the third Broken Concentration over them.


Pull is another 5 or 6 drop, I started like everyone at 2 copies, but tbh it's cumbersome to cast... Illumination is pretty sick to try to fight mana-inefficient turns and helps glue the deck together. ¨There have been times when I wished I had another hardcounter or pull, but I suspect they are less frequent than the times where I want to make a landdrop or have only a couple of mana lying around to dig for a spell I need.


As a closing note, my list was intended for Steam ladder use, which is still pretty aggro-heavy for some reason. If I were to build for a tournament setting where I would have to think about how the deck would play post sideboard; I'd probably go up to 9 sources of white (to enable blessed alliance), playing a 26th land (glacial fortress) over the 5th removal spell, and probably run commit over cast out.



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