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 Post subject: Re: Cartouches ftw?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:20 pm 
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yeah, i realize it's a big ask. Maybe I shouldn't have said Tier 1 since that obviously doesn't exist. I should have just said "as spiky as possible, please. I'm looking to win games, Timmy and Johnny can go suck a lemon"

i still need to choose between Legend and Nomad. Probably the latter cuz I like how his chorus of the trees deck ran all over a creatureless izzet burn deck. So satisfying.

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 Post subject: Re: Cartouches ftw?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:06 am 
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yeah, i realize it's a big ask. Maybe I shouldn't have said Tier 1 since that obviously doesn't exist. I should have just said "as spiky as possible, please. I'm looking to win games, Timmy and Johnny can go suck a lemon"

i still need to choose between Legend and Nomad. Probably the latter cuz I like how his chorus of the trees deck ran all over a creatureless izzet burn deck. So satisfying.


Well if you want to win games, maybe my revised list ahead of Nomad's (and my first list). It only has 1 less cartouche, but with Cast Out you actually have some "answers" - and not running Gideon is bad.
Haven't tried Legend's 4c version yet though- could be the best for all I know.

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 Post subject: Re: Cartouches ftw?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:09 am 
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I have links to my Cartouche & Trials decks. Are they going to beat top level players all the time? Maybe not. I think
you can win as many as you lose with them. See for yourself.
Red and White Deck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTisU0YVNOo
Black and Blue Deck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_VXH45pnxY

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 Post subject: Re: Cartouches ftw?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:26 am 
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Ok Kel I actually ended up building yours first and pulverized the AI with it. I'll bring it on ladder tonight. Your revised list seems much more focused, can't wait. Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Cartouches ftw?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:26 pm 
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Cast Out is fine, and you could probably replace the Harvesters in my build with them if you're feeling naked. But in a deck where you're maxed out on Sacred Cat, Glory-Bound Initiate, Trial of Solidarity and Cartouches, not running Lone Rider is flat out crazy.

Also if I were to swap out Harvesters, Cast Out might be my third choice after collective effort. Even with the cycling, two more 4cc without adding more land would make me nervous.


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 Post subject: Re: Cartouches ftw?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:20 pm 
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Cast Out is fine, and you could probably replace the Harvesters in my build with them if you're feeling naked. But in a deck where you're maxed out on Sacred Cat, Glory-Bound Initiate, Trial of Solidarity and Cartouches, not running Lone Rider is flat out crazy.

Also if I were to swap out Harvesters, Cast Out might be my third choice after collective effort. Even with the cycling, two more 4cc without adding more land would make me nervous.


A mix between the two decks might be the answer (see below). I think Gideon & 2-3 Cast Out should definitely be there but some other cards could come out, such as the Curators and Illuminations- which would make room for Collective Effort & Lone Rider. Conversely your deck could drop Temmet and Infiltrators for Gideon/CastOut.

Riders can be awkward at times as they and the cats are only 1/1's, so a single cartouche doesn't get us the required 3 life. And the 1/1 body is a bit useless if we aren't able to flip them. But as you mentioned there's also the Initiates and Trials, and optional Harvester.

On your last point, yeah, the land needs to adjusted between 21-23 depending on how many 4 drops end up being included. I haven't found 23 to be excessive yet, as we can discard lands with Trial of Knowledge and Copter.

Strong turn 5? :ookay: Haha
Attachment:
20170709072019_1.jpg
20170709072019_1.jpg [ 196.95 KiB | Viewed 3257 times ]


Creatures (16):
4x Sacred Cat
2x Sram, Senior Edificer
2x Glory-Bound Initiate
3x Lone Rider
2x Spell Queller
3x Reflector Mage
1x Thalia, Heretic Cathar

Artefacts (2):
2x Smuggler's Copter

Instant/Sorcery (2):
2x Collective Effort

Walkers (1)
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

Enchantments (16):
3x Cartouche of Solidarity
4x Cartouche of Knowledge
1x Always Watching
3x Trial of Solidarity
2x Trial of Knowledge
3x Cast Out

Lands (22): (still deciding between this or 23 land and 2 Lone Rider)
10 Plains
7 Islands
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Prairie Stream
1 Westvale Abbey

I think we're getting closer to optimizing this. Feels really solid.

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 Post subject: Re: Cartouches ftw?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:24 am 
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My recent Valor deck uses the white Trial and Cartouches. Decent, but mostly just fun to play. It is highly aggressive. I actually was thinking it may be a deck that fits your play style more than mine Barney.

If you want a deck list, I can get you the most recent version. Probably still will tinker with it a bit, but probably 90% is set in stone at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: Cartouches ftw?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:27 pm 
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cool, thanks for thinking of me. I'm undefeated with Kel's build so far so I'm gonna roll with that for awhile. It sure is fun, also it's very efficient because I find opponents sometimes quit once you pop your first trial with a cartouche. They just don't want to see what's coming.

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 Post subject: Re: Cartouches ftw?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Kel'Thuzad wrote:
Cast Out is fine, and you could probably replace the Harvesters in my build with them if you're feeling naked. But in a deck where you're maxed out on Sacred Cat, Glory-Bound Initiate, Trial of Solidarity and Cartouches, not running Lone Rider is flat out crazy.

Also if I were to swap out Harvesters, Cast Out might be my third choice after collective effort. Even with the cycling, two more 4cc without adding more land would make me nervous.


A mix between the two decks might be the answer (see below). I think Gideon & 2-3 Cast Out should definitely be there but some other cards could come out, such as the Curators and Illuminations- which would make room for Collective Effort & Lone Rider. Conversely your deck could drop Temmet and Infiltrators for Gideon/CastOut.

Riders can be awkward at times as they and the cats are only 1/1's, so a single cartouche doesn't get us the required 3 life. And the 1/1 body is a bit useless if we aren't able to flip them. But as you mentioned there's also the Initiates and Trials, and optional Harvester.

On your last point, yeah, the land needs to adjusted between 21-23 depending on how many 4 drops end up being included. I haven't found 23 to be excessive yet, as we can discard lands with Trial of Knowledge and Copter.

Strong turn 5? :ookay: Haha
Attachment:
20170709072019_1.jpg


Creatures (16):
4x Sacred Cat
2x Sram, Senior Edificer
2x Glory-Bound Initiate
3x Lone Rider
2x Spell Queller
3x Reflector Mage
1x Thalia, Heretic Cathar

Artefacts (2):
2x Smuggler's Copter

Instant/Sorcery (2):
2x Collective Effort

Walkers (1)
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

Enchantments (16):
3x Cartouche of Solidarity
4x Cartouche of Knowledge
1x Always Watching
3x Trial of Solidarity
2x Trial of Knowledge
3x Cast Out

Lands (22): (still deciding between this or 23 land and 2 Lone Rider)
10 Plains
7 Islands
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Prairie Stream
1 Westvale Abbey

I think we're getting closer to optimizing this. Feels really solid.


That looks pretty good, but I feel like it's a little heavy and underpopulated. I'd drop a cast out and collective effort for a couple selfless spirits.

Regarding the land, have you gotten any use out of the Abbey? Doesn't seem like a great fit here. I've been happy with the Sandstone Bridges in mine; they get an extra exert out of the Initiates and add a lifelink damage to help flip a rider. I've got a lower curve though so I don't know if they'd be too slow here.

One thing I keep thinking as I play this: is Trial of Knowledge actually a good card that helps me win games, or did I only include it cause I have the Cartouches? I'm really not sure; extra cards are good, but it seems awfully slow relative to what the rest of my deck is doing, and I'm not usually excited to have it show up. I think I'm going to try replacing one with Gideon.


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 Post subject: Re: Cartouches ftw?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:49 pm 
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One thing I keep thinking as I play this: is Trial of Knowledge actually a good card that helps me win games, or did I only include it cause I have the Cartouches? I'm really not sure; extra cards are good, but it seems awfully slow relative to what the rest of my deck is doing, and I'm not usually excited to have it show up. I think I'm going to try replacing one with Gideon.


When I was trying a G/U Trials deck, that is exactly how I felt. I cut back to one because too often I would have 2 in hand, and no real use for both of them. When I would go over 7 cards, that was my first discard. I had to spend mana on other things than more card draw.

It is like Pull imo. I used to run both Pull in my esper, but I have cut back to one, and that seems about right. You do not mind a pull or ToK early, but 2 in hand is a bit limiting. It is a great card to see when you are 1/2 through the game and need some more gas.

I do really like how all the trials, except black, help activate their respective Gods. Nice design.

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 Post subject: Re: Cartouches ftw?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:57 pm 
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Kel'Thuzad wrote:
Cast Out is fine, and you could probably replace the Harvesters in my build with them if you're feeling naked. But in a deck where you're maxed out on Sacred Cat, Glory-Bound Initiate, Trial of Solidarity and Cartouches, not running Lone Rider is flat out crazy.

Also if I were to swap out Harvesters, Cast Out might be my third choice after collective effort. Even with the cycling, two more 4cc without adding more land would make me nervous.


A mix between the two decks might be the answer (see below). I think Gideon & 2-3 Cast Out should definitely be there but some other cards could come out, such as the Curators and Illuminations- which would make room for Collective Effort & Lone Rider. Conversely your deck could drop Temmet and Infiltrators for Gideon/CastOut.

Riders can be awkward at times as they and the cats are only 1/1's, so a single cartouche doesn't get us the required 3 life. And the 1/1 body is a bit useless if we aren't able to flip them. But as you mentioned there's also the Initiates and Trials, and optional Harvester.

On your last point, yeah, the land needs to adjusted between 21-23 depending on how many 4 drops end up being included. I haven't found 23 to be excessive yet, as we can discard lands with Trial of Knowledge and Copter.

Strong turn 5? :ookay: Haha
Attachment:
20170709072019_1.jpg


Creatures (16):
4x Sacred Cat
2x Sram, Senior Edificer
2x Glory-Bound Initiate
3x Lone Rider
2x Spell Queller
3x Reflector Mage
1x Thalia, Heretic Cathar

Artefacts (2):
2x Smuggler's Copter

Instant/Sorcery (2):
2x Collective Effort

Walkers (1)
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

Enchantments (16):
3x Cartouche of Solidarity
4x Cartouche of Knowledge
1x Always Watching
3x Trial of Solidarity
2x Trial of Knowledge
3x Cast Out

Lands (22): (still deciding between this or 23 land and 2 Lone Rider)
10 Plains
7 Islands
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Prairie Stream
1 Westvale Abbey

I think we're getting closer to optimizing this. Feels really solid.


That looks pretty good, but I feel like it's a little heavy and underpopulated. I'd drop a cast out and collective effort for a couple selfless spirits.

Regarding the land, have you gotten any use out of the Abbey? Doesn't seem like a great fit here. I've been happy with the Sandstone Bridges in mine; they get an extra exert out of the Initiates and add a lifelink damage to help flip a rider. I've got a lower curve though so I don't know if they'd be too slow here.

One thing I keep thinking as I play this: is Trial of Knowledge actually a good card that helps me win games, or did I only include it cause I have the Cartouches? I'm really not sure; extra cards are good, but it seems awfully slow relative to what the rest of my deck is doing, and I'm not usually excited to have it show up. I think I'm going to try replacing one with Gideon.


The Profane Prince pretty much single-handedly won me a very close game on ladder that was leaning towards a loss. I think it's worth including as a one-of for situations like that. If it was a 3+ colour deck then I wouldn't risk running into a when I need colours, but this is mostly a white deck with a splash of blue, so it doesn't really hurt our mana base at all.

Yes I've had the same thoughts about blue Trial. It's not the card we want to see when things are running smoothly. I think it's more for when our opponents are throwing a wrench into our plans and dragging the game out - In those situations its important to keep our hand stocked. It's easy to run out of cards when we're heavy on cheap creatures and also auras that make any removal a 2-for-1. A turn 4-5 Languish can put this deck on the canvas if it doesn't have some card draw to recover.
It comes down to a choice of whether you want some tools to deal with mid-late game matches. Or whether you'd rather gamble all-in on the aggro strategy and accept being more vulnerable in longer matches.

Good to hear the deck is working well for you Barney. I've only lost once with it myself, and that was against a turn 3 Liliana followed up by absurd amounts of removal to protect her (basically a miracle hand).

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 Post subject: Re: Cartouches ftw?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:23 pm 
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Kel, i had a blast with this deck and retired it 15-2, thanks for the fun build. Lost to azorious control and mono white heavy fliers

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 Post subject: Re: Cartouches ftw?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:43 pm 
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I've been messing around with Cartouches again. What I loved about LVD's 4c Trials deck is the way it has access to 12 trials to abuse recasting. 2 color versions I've tried just dissapont me when I don't hit one of the fewer trials they can run - making trials feel like a perk rather than a feature. My intent is to abuse them, so this is the list that's been performing best (and most fun) out of the versions I've been screwing with.

4c Sigil Trials

37 Spells
4x Unbridled Growth - wasn't sure about this when built but first 2 turns mostly mana fixing anyways, and I need to get my colors ASAP. Cantrip makes them acceptable, and it's cool to make a 4/4 angel plus draw a card for 1 mana later in the game. Makes a nice T5 play when having a Harald out and able to cast Sigil plus this on same turn.
3x Trial of Ambition - removal on a stick
4x Cartouche of Knowledge - flying card draw Trial recursion
2x Herald of the Pantheon - wish I could run 4 of these. Super ramp in this deck
3x Blessed Spirits - gets stupid big stupid fast if not removed on the spot
2x Blood-Cursed Knight - originally was 2x Auramancer, but survivability was more important than a 2/2 body that almost never nets anything back on curve (mostly just functioned to cantrip with Growths n Cast Outs). Changed to knights for the lifegain and has been working better for me.
3x Trial of Strength - bodies on a stick
2x Trial of Solidarity - team pump n vigilance on a stick
3x Cartouche of Strength - removal, makes spirits a big problem
1x Cartouche of Ambition - this in place of green Cartouche #4 for the lifegain aid
2x Woodland Wanderer - almost always drops as 6/6, slap blue Cartouche on for serious beats
2x Trial of Knowledge - dig for Sigils on repeat
2x Cast Out - cycle early to hit land drops, play late on troublesome threats
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar - to produce a bodies for Cartouches, also just bomb card
2x Sigil of the Empty Throne - GG
1x Ajani Unyielding - all spells are permanents so his +1 is insane here.

23 land. Wasn't sure if that was enough, but I think the shuffler favors odd numbered mana bases and I seem to draw as well as if I was running 24.
2 x Forest
1 x Plains
1 x Island
1 x Swamp
2 x Prairie Stream
2 x Sunken Hallow
2 x Canopy Vista
2 x Hinterland Harbor
2 x Drowned Catacomb
2 x Glacial Fortress
2 x Isolated Chapel
2 x Sunpetal Grove
2 x Woodland Cemetery


It's been very fun to play. Typical issues with 4c decks and mana colors, but it can go off surprisingly fast. This a deck you can goof off with vs AI and deal so much lethal it takes over a minute to tally at the end. Almost certain I set my damage record with this deck - can't recall waiting that long for damage to calculate ever before.

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Last edited by The Secret of TIMH on Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cartouches ftw?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:40 pm 
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looks like a blast to play

also, i miss u

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 Post subject: Re: Cartouches ftw?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:04 pm 
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looks like a blast to play

also, i miss u


It is a blast. Most fun I've ever had with a Sigil deck. Recurring trials solves the biggest thing that usually bothers me with Sigil decks, when you play it and can't follow up with a bunch of enchantment plays. Easy to go from T4 (with Harold) or T5 minimal board state to T5/6 explosion of angel and beast tokens board state. Like an effin shot gun blast. Also makes Blessed Spirits a helluva card. I always thought it was pretty garbage, but here it's ridiculous.

I miss u and the rest of the old timers too... I keep hoping to see some activity here again...

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