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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:32 pm 
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The following four points are what I think of the current economy versus where it should be.

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1: Gem prices are fine. Pack prices in gems are not.

First of all, the new constructed format is the worst thing they've ever done in this game, and that's saying something. It's unbelievably sleazy to the point of just being outright disgusting for something in the game to cost 95 gems at all. That needs to go up to 100 or down to 75. Either one works. Then the rake for the new constructed casino needs to be adjusted to a reasonable level instead of keeping it at a rate that would make most casinos blush.

The pack bundles themselves need to cost roughly 2/3 of what they do now. So 90 packs would cost 12000 gems and 3 packs would cost 400 gems. The values in between those two extremes need slight adjustments so they are all multiples of 400. The smallest gem bundle would also need to give 800 gems instead of 750. An extra 50 gems is not a back-breaking number, and this would cleanse the majority of the slime out of the system. Right now it feels like you would have to spend $150-$200 on the game per set to be able to do whatever you want within reason. That number needs to go down to at least $100 without touching gem prices; because people for better or worse have already spent money on the game.

The Dollar price for Drafting ($5 per Draft? if you buy the smallest bundle) is fine. The Draft rewards are not. That is my next point.

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2: Draft rewards need to increase a little. At least on the higher end. And Drafts need to reward Gold, not gems.

The reward for the full 7 wins still gives you 1-3 packs. That's not okay, because that means there is a very real chance that someone who gets 5 wins out of a draft can get more rewards out of it than someone who gets 7 wins; just because the person with 5 wins high-rolls 3 packs and the person with 7 wins low-rolls 1 pack. 7 wins should guarantee you 3 packs, 5 and 6 wins should guarantee you 2-3, etc.

Also, let's be real here. This is best of 1 matches in a game where you can lose based on nothing but mana screw/flood. The odds of each win rate above 3-3 is increasingly insane. Some of the best draft players in the world, who regularly go infinite in MTGO in Best Of Three Drafts, have outright stated they do not think they could go infinite in arena. That is how much of a random element Best of One + Mana Flood/Screw adds to Drafting. So the rewards for 4, 5, 6, and 7 wins all need to be guaranteed better than the rewards at previous tiers, just due to how unlikely those amounts are versus how likely you are to NOT make a profit at all. Again, like the new constructed format, they need to adjust the rake so it wouldn't make a casino blush at the audacity of how low Draft rewards are, compared to the cost of entry.

And draft needs to reward gold, not gems. You put 5000 Gold in. You should get some amount of gold out. Getting a secondary currency you have no way to use until you've played multiple drafts, at 5000 Gold a pop, is the second sleaziest thing they have done in the entire history of MTG:A. Drafts need to reward the primary F2P currency people have ways to get other than drafting, because anything else is just the tactics of a complete predatory slime-ball. There's no pussyfooting around that. It doesn't even have to be that great of a reward, as long as the other Draft rewards make up for it at higher win totals. I'd be completely fine with something like 40% of a draft entry in gold + 5 Guaranteed Boosters + Keep Drafted Cards for 7 wins. If you don't want people going too infinite in draft then just up the number of packs at the very highest level and don't let them go infinite without playing constructed. But don't give them secondary currency they can't use without spending money or doing up to a month's worth of drafting without being able to spend gold on anything else.

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3: I think Phantom Drafting (still get some rewards that don't have to be the same as full Draft reward; but don't get to keep the cards you drafted) at a cheaper price point, should be a thing.

What price point is up for negotiation. But you should be able to draft ~3 times per week through Phantom Drafting.

Gating a single Draft to 5 days worth of grinding (aka max of 6 Drafts per month F2P) just completely locks away that part of the game for people who want to enjoy it but don't want to dedicate their entire Arena experience around it.

As an alternative, they could give away one free Draft per week for people who have invested a certain amount of time into their account that week. It would barely touch their bottom line, it would be a great way to introduce people to the mode without a severe price wall, and I'm sure they could find a way around the multiple accounts exploit. Just make it a 30 wins reward or something each week as a random spitball example (the actual number would have to be well thought out).

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4: I'm fine with a Pack per day for the first 4 wins + Quest. But they need to give people SOMETHING small for playing past that.

Whether it's bringing ICR's back or just giving people 10-25 Gold per win for wins 5-30, completely Free to Play players should be able to work towards something after their first four wins of the day.

People did the math a month or two ago and the ICR's, on average, barely affected how many rares/mythics you would get per month. Even assuming you ground out the full 30 wins per day every day. They basically had a near negligible affect on the rate of F2P progression bar someone getting lucky far beyond the norm. So removing these is just plain stinginess that didn't need to happen.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:39 pm 
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A fifth point, separate from these, is that they need to ensure new players have some way to play without getting decimated by a poor new player experience. But that's it's own hydra with way too many heads to deal with.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:26 pm 
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As a casual player, the best of one matches is a huge turn on for me

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:24 am 
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The game is pretty much pay-2-win atm. There's no way you can win against players who dropped 100$ if your a new player and playing f2p. It'll take you forever to win with those starter decks.

Sure the ladder may be softer at <bronze, but if mono-red wasn't so kick-ass (and the fact that I've already grinded out most of the deck), I think I'd probably quit for a while.

Strangely enough, I tried the quick constructed event today and my only losses were to to low-rank slightly updated starter decks (got some really bad draws in those games).

I really miss the ICRs, because although you mostly unlocked chaff, I'd sometimes get something that would inspire me to try it out and get me brewing. Also, sometimes randomly unlocking a good card is all you need to invest a couple of WCs and build a decent deck, because that won't work if you have 0 copies of a key card. What I mean is crafting out a card and playing it as a 1-of is very different from already having 1 and adding a second or 3rd. With 2 or 3, you can at least test the deck and see if its worthwhile investing more.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:29 pm 
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I prefer the current system. Now, full disclosure, I did drop $100. I knew I would spend it anyway, wanted to support the company and if you are going to spend it, makes more sense to spend it now.

The main thing that got me were 12 rare lands, 2 Rare creatures and 1 rare spell that I was missing. (I got two other rare spells, but I dropped them after a few games.) I have been playing since I was invited in the stress test, so not too long to build up my deck. As is, I still have 8000 out of the 20,000 gems I purchased. I just don't see a need to open more packs since I have the deck I want (for now)

As it is now, I can play quick constructed all day and get rewards if I wanted. Before, I was capped at 30 games (Which I only hit the first weekend I played.), and tbh, I started getting 4 wins and called it a day. Now I am playing 2-3 sets of of quick constructed, and my coin tally is going up nicely. Although my first foray went poorly and I only won one game, I have been 5-3-5-7 since. (And on a side note, I had a weird bug that lost me two games. One game the game crashed, and went I went back in, that game was still going, YAY!, but after a few seconds, it pit me into a second game that I could not interact with. I logged in and out a few times, but basically, it had me in two games, and I could not click on the second game that was showing. So, 2 losses right there. I was 5-1 before that crash on that run, but that put an end to it.) 4 is the break even point, so as long as I keep at 4+ I can play and earn rewards indefinitely. I like that.

I will say that the system tends to reward people that already are winning disproportionately. I can see where that would be a problem. I 'hope' that their algorithm is such that it pair up people with similar win/loss on the ladder as well as rank. That way someone who is 0-2 would play someone else who is 0-2 instead of 0-2 vs a 6-0 deck.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:21 pm 
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Once I get four wins, I don’t need to really play anymore that day right? That’s a good system for someone like me

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:07 pm 
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Well of course you like the way it is now Wintervoid, that's because you'e ignoring it and just going over the system with money.
In any case I can't even play because I'm one of the people caught up in all this new crashing and as such I have been unable to see things for myself still, though I had a bunch of gold and Monored so I am certain I could carry on like a breeze.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:44 pm 
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Wright, the only thing I added to the deck I have been working on for 2 weeks is 10 (I forgot I already had 2) land and 2 Rares that I never see played (2 Dream Stealers) and swapped out a Cosign for Commit. Now, I admit that the land does have an impact, especially vs faster decks, but it is not like it prevented me from making the deck I wanted.

The main thing now is that I can start to look at other decks as well as being more 'creative' with this deck (Creative generally means making it worse while testing stuff out)

Anyway, my whole point is that before, there was little motivation to play after 4 games. ICR was okay, but it was opening the packs and the chance for the Wildcards that was really driving me. Besides, if I average 5.5 wins per 8.5 games, or about 65%, that is about 24 coins per game + .35 cards per game. Now, if you are winging 50% or less, you are almost going backwards. You need to win at least 55% to make it worthwhile. Of course, this isn't including daily quests which I kind of just ignore.


Like I said above though, I think it is a system that will widen the gap which is not good. I am not saying that it is the best system, I am just saying that unlike the last system, there is no limit on how much you can earn per day, and I like that.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:30 pm 
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My thing is multi-fold. First I'm waiting on a new card so I can't spend any money in the game, second is I've only played about five games since the patch and only spent two rares on land. I suspect it's time for me to really test the f2p economy huh?
I've got an idea called Arthur/Merlin.... Knights and Wizards. Want to see if I can pull that off without jewels.
I'm betting I can't.
Here's what I've got to work with at the moment.
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Edit: I can get that quest pretty easy so.... Lets Go!!!!!
God, I hate PC gaming.
Much rather be kicked back on the couch after my long week at work playing on console and rapping with friends.
Sigh

Edit Edit: Yah... no way. I only own some Vona and Lieutenant. Haven't even checked Wizards yet.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:44 am 
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God, I hate PC gaming.
Much rather be kicked back on the couch after my long week at work playing on console and rapping with friends.
Sigh



Same here ;)

So when we can expect the xbox one version?

I missed the duels and all of you :)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:51 am 
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It's blatantly pay to win. I literally paid for a 40% increase in win rate.

The rest of this part of my post was going to be a rant about dusting, pack prices in gems, and drafting; but I decided the above line says it all to be honest.

Once I get four wins, I don’t need to really play anymore that day right? That’s a good system for someone like me


Another funny joke.

The only reason the game isn't hemorrhaging players right now is they didn't do a wipe with Dominaria.

Spending 2 hours to get four wins a day to never catch up so that you can play 1-2 Drafts per week against experienced Drafters who are playing much more than that per week is probably not a good system for anyone.

KraAS wrote:

So when we can expect the xbox one version?


Ranging from more than a year out to never. The PC version probably has to survive for a year in full release and make a profit first.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:01 am 
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I am in a love-hate relationship with the game.

If you exclusively spend money to draft, then the price point for Drafting for an average Drafter is the best you are ever going to get anywhere. Sealed will probably be the same when it's implemented. <- This is where all my gems are going after the next wipe, because I'm not stupid. Spending money on packs is such a feel bad experience that I can't imagine the game surviving long-term in the current state. Thus the thread lol.

Other than the real money price point for Drafting, I hate everything about the game and it's all based on the economy. It's apparent from Reddit that this is currently only a game for the hopelessly addicted, and even then a lot of them are looking at MTGO like it's a cheaper alternative for anything but Drafting.

Every game discussion I have on this with anyone else is either I'm right and no discussion is needed or the pack prices seem reasonable and I'm being greedy, . without much room in between. And it almost always (but not quite always) depends exclusively on whether someone is used to paying more for paper or not.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:57 am 
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The only reason I'm doing ok right now with the game is because I already knew I would focus on mono-red before the Last wipe and I pooled all of my wildcards into that deck (also doesn't need rare lands, which helps).
If I had no idea what to play or just fooled around with ideas looking for something fun to play, I'd be screwed.
100 bucks seems about right to break the pay-wall, but that's way over what I'd be willing to pay.
I tried the quick event and it's bugged. I went 5-2 and got a rewards screen for 4-3. Makes me wary of trying it again.
Brewing is what makes the game fun for me and the f2p progression atm makes it tough, because the ladder is ultra-punishing of less-than-tuned decks.
Would like a casual mode, since there is no AI mode like Duels to test jank.

Btw, izzet wizards is a load of crap. I got 1 win out of nowhere game with 2 Soul-Scars and adelite out and went Opt into Opt into wizard bolt and did 22 damage against Rdw (real wtf value there) and floundered most of the other games (deck isn't 100% complete though). I'm still gonna mess around with it some more but its not very consistent and needs at least 4 rare dual lands or is just too slow.
Mono-white looks sexy and I miss playing that deck but I'm missing 90% of the rares and mythics so If I focused on getting that deck, maybe 2 or 3 months from now I could play it?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:31 am 
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The problem i have as a F2P guy, is that after 4 wins you're done for the day (like actually can't make any more gold) unless you're willing to gamble in odds that are stacked against you.

You need to go 4-3 just to break even (a bonus couple of cards sure) but the quick constructed is brutal, it's like 70% fully decked out RDW/Scarab god and 20% fools who hope to dodge them, meaning that the chances you can get these 4 wins are pretty low, especially once you take in to account mana screw ect.

Like i'm the coveted Steam Showdown 5 champion, i should be able to walk these events, but i've done 2 so far and went 0-3 and 2-3, and faced Red 5 times scarab god twice and 1 random deck

Basically, the way i see it that these events are only for the people who chose a tier 1 deck to grind, or spent cash on one meaning that they get further and further ahead of everyone else :(

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:36 pm 
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I've only played in one event and it was bugged as I already said (went 5-2) and I faced 2 Scarab decks, 1 mono-red and the rest was jank (especially low rank players). Oddly enough, my losses were to the jank decks... Bad draws and being caught off guard to cards you normally wouldn't expect.

My biggest doubts right now as a f2p player is the next wipe when . I mean, paying players are gonna get their gems back and immediately build high tier decks and us f2p players are stuck with the preconstructed decks and however many packs they decide to give new players. Grinding out the cards you need for your first deck was bad enough when everyone was on equal terms, but after the wipe you'll get steam-rolled by the p2w players.

Also, when kaladesh is included, who in their right mind is going to invest in a set that's about to rotate? And what about the banned cards? How are they gonna handle that?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:29 pm 
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You get wildcards I bet when a card is banned

I doubt mana screw is a problem with the new first hand algorithm and the new mullet fan/scary rules

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:48 pm 
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You get wildcards I bet when a card is banned


Arena modern is a thing they are going to do as soon as the first rotation occurs. It's highly likely that we are just going to get a "You can still play it in Arena Modern" answer for what is going to happen to banned cards imo.

I doubt mana screw is a problem with the new first hand algorithm and the new mullet fan/scary rules


I lose about 20% of my games to a bad starting hand, mana screw, or mana flood. Or going second...

The first hand algorithm only takes lands into account. So depending on the number of lands in your deck it will pick a hand with 3 lands and no 1 or 2 drops over a hand with 2 lands and a couple 1 drops.

There are also cases where both hands it draws suck and you still get an extremely bad starting hand just because of that. I get 1 land and 5 land hands more often than you would think.

On top of that issue, it only applies on the first hand you are shown. It doesn't reapply to mulligans. So you have a very real chance of getting a bad first hand and a bad second hand and having to mulligan down to 5. If you mulligan down to 5 and your opponent stays at 7, you've probably lost that game just due to the inherent card disadvantage already at play.

The scry 1 is nice, but after that the game plays out like normal too. So you could easily take a 2-3 land hand and not get any more lands for 6 turns. And you could easily draw land 4 turns in a row. Nothing in the game prevents you from losing to clumping.

The new hand algorithm is better than nothing, but there's a reason why Best of Three is the Standard. You are still going to get mana flooded/screwed in about 1/4 to 1/3 of your games, so Best of Three (when they implement it) will theoretically let people have at least 2 games out of 3 where they aren't fighting their mana base too much.

Best of Three also removes a lot of the edge off of First Player vs Second Player advantage, which is an extremely real thing where 90% of the REAL control decks play turn 2 Essence Scatter and most of the better aggro decks NEED to land their 2 drop. Whether or not you get to go first has a massive effect on matches right now, because it's literally the difference between forcing through 3-4 damage with Earthshaker Khenra, thus beginning to snowball, or being unable to do any damage on turn 2. Or if you are on the receiving end it's a good way to keep 2-4 health vs letting the aggro player snowball.

Edit: The only reason I still have a high winrate going second is because a lot of opponents aren't playing REAL decks. They are playing budget versions that are the best they can afford to build. So if I go second I can eke out a win through a war of attrition. When I run into a pimped out deck though going second is just a good way to lose, except sometimes in the control mirror where it can be just a game of who can land a creature with enough counter-spells up to protect it first.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:09 pm 
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Haven_pt wrote:
If I had no idea what to play or just fooled around with ideas looking for something fun to play, I'd be screwed.


I think this is going to be a major long-term problem for the game. Not the "I'd be screwed" part but the fact that people literally can't afford to mess around.

Because every Mythic is equal to exactly 1 wildcard, Arena doesn't have an equivalent for "fun" budget decks. Felidar Sovereign costs just as much to craft as The Scarab God, so if you are smart you know you literally can't afford to make decks just for fun unless you are extremely rich and can just drop $1500 on the game without blinking (aka not me or anyone else here).

Magic is designed to be a TCG. Without trading or a secondary market, everyone who plays this game long term is going to have to pool all of their resources into only playing top tier meta decks if they want to be successful. This is going to make this game the most meta-driven digital CCG of any I've ever heard of. Way worse than any of the competitors with dusting mechanics. Dusting a HS legendary you crafted is a 75% loss, but at least it's not a total loss. And in paper magic or MTGO you can sell your old decks to help pay for new ones. In this game, there's no way to get rid of your cards and no way to significantly speed up the vault past ~2 times per month other than dropping Korean MMO levels of cash, so all the budget mythics and rares are going to be completely uncraftable and there is going to be zero room for "home-brewing" fun decks.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:28 pm 
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I still don't understand why the hell we are buying packs.

Can someone explain to me how we all got lobotomized to the point where we could be convinced to play a version of Magic where we try to play CONSTRUCTED STANDARD by opening packs? Because if this was any other MTG economy on the planet we would all be buying singles and/or trading with each other.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:36 pm 
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Meh, so I actually probably could ‘afford’ to pay that kind of money, I just won’t. I’ll pay when they make it possible to buy specific cards, and not before. I have 0 interest in this ftp, RNG, nonesense. I’m barely even interested in trying the game, truth be told. I will definitely not get a return on my investment, and I paid into the last game, which got canceled, and that still stings.


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