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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:25 pm 
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divinevert wrote:
Also, and not for nothing, but our mana for Izzet and Boros is good. There isn't some requirement stopping us from splashing other colors other than some weird perverse desire to stay monored.


Fair point, we will have to see I guess.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:16 am 
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It's not a perverse desire to play mono-red, it's consistent, no color-screw mana that is mono's advantage.
I took your advice and splashed white in my mono-red for a bunch of power cards and the deck actually lost power. Even with a full-set of boros duals and 2 plains. Granted, I may been greedy on my splash choices and not built it right, but it did perform worse (including a loss to turbo fog which was really annoying), I also cut the risk factors just to play out your argument vert, and I can't say it was an improvement.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:25 am 
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Haven_pt wrote:
It's not a perverse desire to play mono-red, it's consistent, no color-screw mana that is mono's advantage.
I took your advice and splashed white in my mono-red for a bunch of power cards and the deck actually lost power. Even with a full-set of boros duals and 2 plains. Granted, I may been greedy on my splash choices and not built it right, but it did perform worse (including a loss to turbo fog which was really annoying), I also cut the risk factors just to play out your argument vert, and I can't say it was an improvement.


Guarantee at worst it was a lateral move by cutting the worst card in the deck.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:58 am 
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Kryder wrote:
Haven_pt wrote:
It's not a perverse desire to play mono-red, it's consistent, no color-screw mana that is mono's advantage.
I took your advice and splashed white in my mono-red for a bunch of power cards and the deck actually lost power. Even with a full-set of boros duals and 2 plains. Granted, I may been greedy on my splash choices and not built it right, but it did perform worse (including a loss to turbo fog which was really annoying), I also cut the risk factors just to play out your argument vert, and I can't say it was an improvement.


Guarantee at worst it was a lateral move by cutting the worst card in the deck.


You might end up having to eat your words in a month's time. Josh Silvestri, Brian Bran Duin, and then Seth Manfield have all highlighted decks with 4x Risk Factor. The list looks something like:

22 x Mountain

4 x Ghitu Lavarunner
4 x Fanatical Firebrand
4 x Viashino Pyromancer
4 x Runaway Steam-Kin
4 x Goblin Chainwhirler

4 x Shock
4 x Lightning Strike
4 x Risk Factor
3 x Wizard's Lightning
3 x The Flame of Keld


You'd be in good company though, because all three authors wrote about how they're surprised at Risk Factor's viability. Seth Manfield's words on this is particularly illuminating:

Quote:
Most of the burn spells are ones you would expect to see – except one, which might be the most important. That would be Risk Factor, of course. I will admit it I am among those who overlooked this card at first glance in Standard. Four damage is a lot when your deck is built around burn, but most of the time the opponent takes the damage because drawing more cards is worse. If they let you draw cards, you are likely to just draw more burn.

The most important part about Risk Factor is that it has jump-start. This means you are getting essentially two burn spells in one. One of the biggest weaknesses of this deck has traditionally been flooding out. There are so many cheap spells and not a ton to do later in the game, at least before the presence of Risk Factor. Having tried the card out myself, it is something that is underrated until you actually start casting it, and it can be very impressive in the right deck.


Yay me, since I stopped underrating it after playing against it only :D


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:34 am 
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Banedon wrote:
Kryder wrote:
Haven_pt wrote:
It's not a perverse desire to play mono-red, it's consistent, no color-screw mana that is mono's advantage.
I took your advice and splashed white in my mono-red for a bunch of power cards and the deck actually lost power. Even with a full-set of boros duals and 2 plains. Granted, I may been greedy on my splash choices and not built it right, but it did perform worse (including a loss to turbo fog which was really annoying), I also cut the risk factors just to play out your argument vert, and I can't say it was an improvement.


Guarantee at worst it was a lateral move by cutting the worst card in the deck.


You might end up having to eat your words in a month's time. Josh Silvestri, Brian Bran Duin, and then Seth Manfield have all highlighted decks with 4x Risk Factor. The list looks something like:

22 x Mountain

4 x Ghitu Lavarunner
4 x Fanatical Firebrand
4 x Viashino Pyromancer
4 x Runaway Steam-Kin
4 x Goblin Chainwhirler

4 x Shock
4 x Lightning Strike
4 x Risk Factor
3 x Wizard's Lightning
3 x The Flame of Keld


You'd be in good company though, because all three authors wrote about how they're surprised at Risk Factor's viability. Seth Manfield's words on this is particularly illuminating:

Quote:
Most of the burn spells are ones you would expect to see – except one, which might be the most important. That would be Risk Factor, of course. I will admit it I am among those who overlooked this card at first glance in Standard. Four damage is a lot when your deck is built around burn, but most of the time the opponent takes the damage because drawing more cards is worse. If they let you draw cards, you are likely to just draw more burn.

The most important part about Risk Factor is that it has jump-start. This means you are getting essentially two burn spells in one. One of the biggest weaknesses of this deck has traditionally been flooding out. There are so many cheap spells and not a ton to do later in the game, at least before the presence of Risk Factor. Having tried the card out myself, it is something that is underrated until you actually start casting it, and it can be very impressive in the right deck.


Yay me, since I stopped underrating it after playing against it only :D


I'm basing it on fact that everytime I've played against it I've won. But I am play an extremely fast aggressive deck that incidentally gains life, so I am extremely biased.

However, all cards like this before it that give your player a choice really never made a splash. The deck above you posted is exceptionally aggressive and should work in there, but outside of the basic mountain it is probably the weakest one there.

IF this becomes a staple of standard, expect lifegain (which is actually prevalent in standard right now) to be the answer that wrecks the "subtract from 20" plan. Any deck that puts out a decent board and gains life would answer this, and I suspect this hyper-aggro mono-red to be the Rock to a Dimir/Jeskai/Esper/Izzet Control Scissor to a Selesnya lifegain shell-ed Paper environment. Just spitballing but that looks feasible at this point.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:53 am 
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I am running a near identical list to Haven, but Frenzy instead of Risk. The deck actually started Boros, and the last Boros cards I had in it were 2 Tajic and 4 Integrity/Intervention. The deck had more power, but lacked some consistency. Honestly, I may try again, strictly for the sweeper protection and the additional burn, since it seems that sweepers are much more prevalent then when I last tested.

Also, Haven, if you are experimenting and you have the Frenzys unlocked, try it out. Again, probably not as good as the straight burn version, but the times where you can take them from 15-0 in one turn with no card in hand is pretty fun. It IS frustrating when you get 4 mountains in a row (or additional frenzies)....but probably no more so then if I took 4 turns to draw 4 mountains in a row. At least with Frenzy, you get them out of the way in 2 turns.

Steam Kin is pretty awesome on it's own. Add in Frenzy, and it becomes a deadly combo.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:55 am 
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I'm just happy, that Seth Manfield read my comments on NGA :D


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:54 pm 
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Wintervoid wrote:
I am running a near identical list to Haven, but Frenzy instead of Risk. The deck actually started Boros, and the last Boros cards I had in it were 2 Tajic and 4 Integrity/Intervention. The deck had more power, but lacked some consistency. Honestly, I may try again, strictly for the sweeper protection and the additional burn, since it seems that sweepers are much more prevalent then when I last tested.

Also, Haven, if you are experimenting and you have the Frenzys unlocked, try it out. Again, probably not as good as the straight burn version, but the times where you can take them from 15-0 in one turn with no card in hand is pretty fun. It IS frustrating when you get 4 mountains in a row (or additional frenzies)....but probably no more so then if I took 4 turns to draw 4 mountains in a row. At least with Frenzy, you get them out of the way in 2 turns.

Steam Kin is pretty awesome on it's own. Add in Frenzy, and it becomes a deadly combo.


Don't have any frenzies yet. Saw an interesting mono red list that runs 4 treasure maps to scry away the unwanted lands and also to give you extra mana to keep the spells coming, with the help of 4 steam-kin and a low curve (topping at 3 with chainwhirlers, with the only 4 drops being the set of frenzies). Should be nasty when it goes off. Don't have any maps either though, wonder if any of the precons has any (there was one in a pre-wipe precon).

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:13 pm 
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Frenzy is awesome if you don't get those bloody mountains... but I had a streak of 3 burn spells with Frenzy. Was glorious :-)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:27 pm 
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Haven_pt wrote:
Don't have any frenzies yet. Saw an interesting mono red list that runs 4 treasure maps to scry away the unwanted lands and also to give you extra mana to keep the spells coming, with the help of 4 steam-kin and a low curve (topping at 3 with chainwhirlers, with the only 4 drops being the set of frenzies). Should be nasty when it goes off. Don't have any maps either though, wonder if any of the precons has any (there was one in a pre-wipe precon).


I had considered Maps, but TBH, I don't think we have the card pool to focus that heavily on the combo. It weakens the RDW aspect for all the times you don't get Frenzy out, and I would say that is maybe 2/3's of the time I either don't get Frenzy, can cast it (rare) or it gets killed before I get anything out. I will say that I have gotten to the point where I will cast Frenzy T4 if I can even if I have a decent card in hand.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:59 pm 
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I got 4 consecutive 7-x runs with my deck on B01... Risk factor its a central piece of the deck... the card is great!
EDIT: Experimental Frenzy looks janky as Hell IMO... 4CMC enchantment ... and you cant play cards from your hand..... :gross:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:31 pm 
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Kryder wrote:
I'm basing it on fact that everytime I've played against it I've won. But I am play an extremely fast aggressive deck that incidentally gains life, so I am extremely biased.

However, all cards like this before it that give your player a choice really never made a splash. The deck above you posted is exceptionally aggressive and should work in there, but outside of the basic mountain it is probably the weakest one there.

IF this becomes a staple of standard, expect lifegain (which is actually prevalent in standard right now) to be the answer that wrecks the "subtract from 20" plan. Any deck that puts out a decent board and gains life would answer this, and I suspect this hyper-aggro mono-red to be the Rock to a Dimir/Jeskai/Esper/Izzet Control Scissor to a Selesnya lifegain shell-ed Paper environment. Just spitballing but that looks feasible at this point.


That's not surprising though. This card was only ever going to be good in extremely aggressive decks, and burn decks have always been weak vs. lifegain. Ad Nauseum vs. Burn for example in modern has always been lopsided, since one Phyrexian Unlife effectively gains 10 life for an instant win.

I got 4 consecutive 7-x runs with my deck on B01... Risk factor its a central piece of the deck... the card is great!
EDIT: Experimental Frenzy looks janky as Hell IMO... 4CMC enchantment ... and you cant play cards from your hand..... :gross:


Experimental Frenzy is great! It effectively lets you draw multiple cards a turn. The card you draw for the turn is replaced by the card on top of your library, with the bonus that if you can play that card, you can play the next one also (and the next, and the next). Further the card you actually draw for the turn is kept in reserve for when you eventually sacrifice the Experimental Frenzy. It's a better version of Vance's Blasting Cannons and Outpost Siege set to Khans.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:17 pm 
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Hmmm... I think I will pass for now.... also those decks you mentioned before... do you happen to have a link.. I wonder how to sideboard with my RiskFactor deck... dunno really what should I do... or if I can do anything at all...

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:44 pm 
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EDIT: Experimental Frenzy looks janky as Hell IMO... 4CMC enchantment ... and you cant play cards from your hand..... :gross:


Try it some time. It is not Keld good, but it wins games. Every turn, you generally get 1 land and cast 2-3 spells, more with Kin out. Once you hit a land, your next turn that land goes to your hand, and you can cast from your deck until you run out of mana or hit your second land. It is very rare that I sac Frenzy because the game is generally over in a few turns, and all my hand collects is land, more frenzys and the occasional creature. Burn is always used (Even if it has to be the next turn before draw.) Yes, you can hit clumps, but that would happen even if you didn't have Frenzy out.

I have had games where I have literally gone from 5 mana and a Kin out and only a Frenzy in hand to 10+ burn damage and 3-4 creatures on the board in a single turn. It is not common, but it happens. It can completely turn a game around, but it is a gamble....which fit's red's personality perfectly.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:04 pm 
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Hmmm... I think I will pass for now.... also those decks you mentioned before... do you happen to have a link.. I wonder how to sideboard with my RiskFactor deck... dunno really what should I do... or if I can do anything at all...

Never mind... I just clicked on the decks :D
My deck is almost identical to Seth Manfield´s, except for one two cards... I run the 1 cmc goblin instead of Flame of Keld Firebrand and Warboss instead Flame of Keld

Here is the SB

1 Experimental Frenzy: dunno for what you should swap this
4 Fight with Fire: against Green?
4 Lava Coil: Green?
1 Mountain: forthe Phoenixes?
3 Rekindling Phoenix: Against.... dunno
2 Vance's Blasting Cannons : ¡?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:23 pm 
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Funny story...just picked up my 4th Risk Factor from a pack opening. 3 from packs, 1 from ICR.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:01 am 
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Funny Risk Factor story tonight.

Playing as Jeski Control. Playing vs Izzet spells. Long game, we have pretty much been elimination each others threats, and he is high teens life and I am at 9, but I am getting the sense that he is low on actual threats, although I am also low on threats due to counters and other removal (including some Nivs I had to dispose of). He hits me with 4 risk factors, I take had taken damage earlier from the first one, but notice we are both around 20-30 cards....so I let him take cards on the next 3. Seems like that is his last threat or he wants to dig for a threat.

I have 14 mana, and I am sure he is out of counters. I have an Expansion/Explosion. He has 9 cards left in the deck....

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:23 pm 
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Was playing Selesnya Tokens vs. Izzet Burn.


I'm threatening fatal. He casts Risk Factor. I of course take the damage and then pummel him to death because he didn't affect the board.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:31 pm 
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divinevert wrote:
Was playing Selesnya Tokens vs. Izzet Burn.


I'm threatening fatal. He casts Risk Factor. I of course take the damage and then pummel him to death because he didn't affect the board.


Was there any other realistic card he could've played that would've won him the game?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:00 pm 
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Banedon wrote:
divinevert wrote:
Was playing Selesnya Tokens vs. Izzet Burn.


I'm threatening fatal. He casts Risk Factor. I of course take the damage and then pummel him to death because he didn't affect the board.


Was there any other realistic card he could've played that would've won him the game?

Fiery Canonade. Most of the targeted burn could've bought him a turn.

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