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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:39 pm 
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Even if it was the first. As long as it's their own message, it should be okay, right?
The rules mentioned 'messages from other players or the mod'. But that's not what happened. It's their own message.

And like I described in my second paragraph, I would abuse that first method with a partner into tricking a loner to my side <_<

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:41 pm 
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You're missing that a BCC does not show your message. It only gave me KoDs message.
I read the rule as 'you cannot give definitive stuff other players made'.
But if I made a message of my own, I can choose who to share it with, right?
And instead of sending them one by one, I use BCC to send the message to everyone, whilst those other people do not know from each other that they got the same message.

If I had a teammate I would've abused the heck out of that. Faking an argument, warning my teammate beforehand that I would send a fake argument to the loner and BCC-ing the loner only when sending the fake argument.
They can be manipulated on the same scale as a simple quote can be used. It just takes a bit more work.

I know it doesn't send them my message. But how many of KoD's messages had ad-verbatim quotes from me? Probably at least half of them, since they're supposed to be identical.

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:44 pm 
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I'd have to look back in my PM-box. Just the fact that I received them was good enough for me. I never read them.

But, again, the second paragraph shows how people in the same team can abuse that in faking an argument. It was the talk you and I had together over PMs that convinced me that the argument between you two was real.

But all in all, it was a weird-ass game. Can we keep it at that?

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:47 pm 
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This game was weird. I initially didn't PM anyone, because I had no idea who was on my team and I didn't want to take the risk of revealing myself to an enemy. And then day 2 I suddenly get pulled into this Rome/Persia alliance that was apparently well-established at that point, and I learn like 80% of the hidden information about the game setup.

There are a lot of small reasons that contributed to my going with KoD. The main ones were:
  • I had already told a Roman (who was lying about being from Carthage) that I thought betraying Rome eventually could be a good plan. I made this statement with basically no information about the faction sizes, but the important part was that Rome already had reasons not to trust me.
  • By the time I was notified about the Rome/Persian alliance, it was pretty clear I wasn't an integral part of it, and it sounded incredibly boring to just cast my predetermined vote every day until I win.
  • KoD was pretty adamant about betraying Rome immediately. I still have no idea why he was so set on this, but I can't say his urgency didn't push my decision somewhat.

I totally accept that betraying Rome was not the optimal strategic decision, but I feel like if we hadn't, the game would have been effectively over then and there, and I signed up to play a game, not get a gold star for randomly getting put on the right team. The moment I betrayed Rome was the high point of the game for me, because it took a boring situation and made it exciting.

tl;dr Winning isn't fun if I don't have to try.

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:24 pm 
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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Yesterday I would have said luck was on KoD's side, but I guess it was just on Mown's. And when I say luck, I really do mean luck. I wasn't late on deadline because I was late on deadline, I was unfortunately just getting off work so I was operating through my phone. I hit a signal dip while trying to post my vote, which delayed the post enough to miss the deadline.

However, this was only an issue because the Romans seemed to actively want to throw the game away. Well that's probably a bit harsh, but they never lost the mentality that they would have to concede to somebody else's plan in order to move forward. Granted suspicions were probably high on what was being said to them and justifiably so, but when you're in a situation where you are guaranteed to be lynched unless you do something different, sticking to trying to control things is maybe not the best idea. That aside, it wouldn't have worked out for Rome in the long run if they had anyways. :teach:

So here's how I went about the game:

During day 1-2 initially I was going to sit the game out and only comment as an in-game spectator. But then Niklor irked my goat. Addressing the comment that KoD made about trying to use his Pseudo account to provoke me against Niklor, that had nothing to do with it. While I did initially believe Niklor was a possible potential, after Pseudo's initial PM round I started talking with Niklor directly, so when Pseudo re-surfaced later, I suspected it to be somebody else considering I was already balls deep in another conversation with Niklor entirely. Getting back to that period though Niklor had approached me about securing my vote for my life - this is what irked me and why I directed the lynch on him Day 3 (knowing KoD was in a numbers bind I was able to direct the counter faction to my liking) - after this point KoD started feeding me information on the Persian/Roman alliance. I didn't trust that he was just trying to be inclusive, suspecting that he was merely trying to direct my vote more subtly. I then took it upon myself to make sure that Squinty was equally as informed because I wanted to see what kind of counter offensive he'd muster. After KoD looped me into the counter alliance being almost as strong as the Roman/Persian alliance I pm'd Rag and told him about the counter offensive building. I told him he might be able to buy my support and told him to make me an offer, just to see what he'd come up with. He declined, saying it wasn't necessary. I replied to him saying that the numbers you think you have might not always turn out to be the numbers you actually have, essentially telling him that there was a traitor in his midst when combined with the massive amount of insider information I had at that point. Later down the line Hello pm'd me about voting against Rome or being killed. Gotta say HW, you got no poker face, but seeing Niklor mentioning you did it to him too made me laugh. I liked your gumption so I voted with the counter alliance. That was a pretty satisfying day.

Day 3 started with KoD still dropping updates on the counter alliance, because if Mown didn't side with the rest of Persia it was apparent he'd need my vote to play the numbers game. HW also pm'd me about continuing to support him. At this point I think my stance to HW was that I'd support a Niklor lynch and beyond that he'd be on his own. When KoD approached me later about supporting his side when Mown support seemed bleak I pretty much told him the same thing, I only had an interest in a Niklor lynch that day. So the wagon swerved over to Niklor (from Fel I believe, KoD desperate to get his hands on that NK). Meanwhile I had been talking to Niklor who had approached me again about siding with Rome. I set him on the almost impossible task of setting up a KoD lynch at that point. I say almost impossible because I didn't expect Mown to go for it, but you never know how people are gonna do. Had all four of them rallied against KoD it would have been an interesting game, because I would have let them both die in a 4-4 tie. But, alas, they didn't even really try, just kinda shutting down on the idea when Mown didn't go for it. Towards the end of this day, I believe, is when HW, Scar, and I started scheming to take down both powerhouses.

Day 4 was pretty bland. I think at this point KoD was afraid of the power I was amassing considering the factions were starting to even out, he started updating less. The plan for the day with me and HW was to start taking down Persian numbers to keep them from amassing too much control, and to keep the NK out of KoD's hands, because that would almost certainly spell doom for one of us (HW, Scar, or me). Early in the day we approached Fel about switching his vote to Mown with myself and HW for support and then me breaking the tie in Rome's favor. We could have easily killed KoD, but the worry there would be that Mown would side back up to Rome, and Jim would follow, creating a bigger voting number then we could surmount. Fel dragged his feet on doing this (which I suspect was planned so that we'd feel forced to take KoD out) so Neo backed his KoD vote and disappeared. If luck had swung another way we would have still been successful, but you know that part.

The plan from there would have been to simply eliminate KoD to ensure no more night kills, then alternate lynching Romans and Persians until only the three of us remained.

I gotta say, I feel like I did far more backstabbery and shady shady than most of the other players. And I was able to do this because I was factionless and quite empowered. Yeah the role seemed to start out kinda pointless but it allowed me to have so much fun. Five stars. Would role again.

As for the other problematic role of the game, you people have no imagination. During the course of the game I was under the impression that Zinger was strictly silent in the strictest of strict strictness. But so much more could have been done with his role in such a much more fun manner. I would disagree with placing him on a team though. Also non-factioned might be a better alternative and supping up the other two Greeks, and not even by that much, maybe just let Squinty kill undelayed.

I think that's all I wanted to say about the game. Looking forward to the next installment Cato!

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:35 pm 
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i am glad that KoD got what was coming to him even if it was via someone else doing the same thing he did

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:51 am 
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The moment you died was the moment I reconsidered my odds in this game. You were the biggest thorn in my side.
Of course, zinger may have played a role in that, but that also lead me to change my game plan from lying my butt off to only be truthful about what I know, only keeping some things silent.

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:32 am 
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The moment you died was the moment I reconsidered my odds in this game. You were the biggest thorn in my side.
Of course, zinger may have played a role in that, but that also lead me to change my game plan from lying my butt off to only be truthful about what I know, only keeping some things silent.

Even during the night or only after squinty died?

The romans shooting a greek after the persians betrayed them and they knew that neo couldn't win with carthage (that they knew being a single player) was a bit weird.


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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:38 am 
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I killed Squinty hoping that Persia would realize that siding with us would lead to a much quicker and easier win. I also don't remember if I was aware or not at the time that Neo needed Scarlet dead. I do remember that I strongly considered shooting Scarlet, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:13 am 
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The moment you died was the moment I reconsidered my odds in this game. You were the biggest thorn in my side.
Of course, zinger may have played a role in that, but that also lead me to change my game plan from lying my butt off to only be truthful about what I know, only keeping some things silent.

Even during the night or only after squinty died?

The romans shooting a greek after the persians betrayed them and they knew that neo couldn't win with carthage (that they knew being a single player) was a bit weird.

The big realization I could win was after squinty died (I also knew that the NK was oneshot because of my own role after all. It was my biggest concern after Rag was lynched). It was at the end of D2 I was contacted by KoD and D3 before I got in with you and numbers.

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:34 pm 
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Oh, this game is done now? Guess I can weigh in on stuff.

He can't communicate with players. Period.
It didn't say he couldn't talk about the game. He couldn't talk at all.

Also, the moment he willingly gave subtext about the game, the gig was up as far as I'm concerned.
Heck, one read of his non-thread made it obvious he was Greek when he suddenly started talking about the Greek gods in there.

That's where you are wrong, actually. No game can prevent someone from posting in the forums at all or PMing people at all. To even allow such a game to be created is against the spirit of the community, since we are talking about "spirit" of things.

If you start playing a variant of monopoly and in this version in the rules it states that while in jail the player is NOT allowed to talk at all under any circumstance, do you really expect that rule to be followed with regards to things outside of the game? Player A is put in jail, fine, so he can't talk, so he gets up and goes to the kitchen and asks everyone what they'd like to drink. Whoops, except he can't cuz he just broke the rules....

No. I disagree. No game can prevent a player from communicating at all with others, just in the same way that NO GAME RULES CAN INFLUENCE ELEMENTS OUTSIDE OF THE GAME. If you are playing a game of Magic the Gathering and one of the cards tells you that you gain control of the other player's actions, you KNOW that you only gain control of their actions insofar as the game is concerned. You don't suddenly gain a real life slave.

THAT BEING SAID, I don't disagree with my being modkill, as I was blatantly trying to find ways to circumvent the spirit of my role at every turn. However, to say that I violated the rules in the strictest sense would be a misnomer. I was modkilled for knowingly violating the spirit of my role. Not the rules. An important distinction.

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:38 pm 
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Zinger sent a message to me by pm in the night.

And if you reflect on the contents of said message you will realize that there was nothing game relevant in there.

Come on, HW, I thought we was friends? I can't send you a friendly PM to discuss non-game related stuff now? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:39 pm 
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This game has been funny on multiple levels.

Speak for yourself. Lol

Well I will admit the creation of my non-game related thread was funny for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:00 pm 
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Let's make one thing clear, the moment I knew you had that role (which was immediately ;)) I knew what you would try. I loathe those kind of roles myself and would've tried the same probably (minus that one thread ;)). But with the game actively encouraging talking through PMs it was pretty obvious with how you suddenly were active PM-ing :P

And yeah, my prior message may have been a tad absolute in trying to explain what I wanted to convey. I think you know what I mean. After all, I never knew what it exactly was that you sent around to other people. But you made my life really uncomfortable in the first days of the game :V

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:21 pm 
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Oh, I know. I don't disagree with what you said I was merely pointing out that I'm not in the business of violating rules.

I, too, loathe these kinds of roles though, and likewise, tried to circumvent it within the rules as much as possible. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:27 am 
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If I had zinger's role I would have derailed the thread into oblivion and not stopped posting in thread every 20 minutes after being modkilled and have started pretending I was a real player.

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:44 pm 
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If I had zinger's role I would have derailed the thread into oblivion and not stopped posting in thread every 20 minutes after being modkilled and have started pretending I was a real player.

I mean tbh you'd probably do that regardless of what role I gave you.

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:10 pm 
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True.

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 Post subject: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 7:42 am 
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Heh, mafia seems to be popular on forums nowadays.
I'm in for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Epistemology mafia
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 7:54 am 
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these spam bots are really starting to spook me

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