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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:27 am 
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Banedon wrote:
I attack with Hazoret the Fervent and my opponent blocks with Torrential Gearhulk. After combat I cast Humility. Do both Hazoret & Gearhulk die (as 1/1's that have taken 5 damage)? Gatherer doesn't say anything about damage wearing off when a creature is transformed, so I assume yes?


Barney is right on this one. Gearhulk dies but Hazoret doesn't. Indestructible isn't an ability.

However; the phrase "N is Indestructible" where N is the name of a card is an ability, and is removed by things like Humility. See Darksteel Colossus and Spearbreaker Behemoth.

But even then, Spearbreaker Behemoth carries another exception, when you use Behemoth's ability to give another creature indestructible it is simply indestructible. That indestructibility cannot be stripped from it via Humility since behemoth does not give the creature an ability, it just gives it the keyword version.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:46 am 
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sixty4half wrote:
Banedon wrote:
I attack with Hazoret the Fervent and my opponent blocks with Torrential Gearhulk. After combat I cast Humility. Do both Hazoret & Gearhulk die (as 1/1's that have taken 5 damage)? Gatherer doesn't say anything about damage wearing off when a creature is transformed, so I assume yes?


Barney is right on this one. Gearhulk dies but Hazoret doesn't. Indestructible isn't an ability.

However; the phrase "N is Indestructible" where N is the name of a card is an ability, and is removed by things like Humility. See Darksteel Colossus and Spearbreaker Behemoth.

But even then, Spearbreaker Behemoth carries another exception, when you use Behemoth's ability to give another creature indestructible it is simply indestructible. That indestructibility cannot be stripped from it via Humility since behemoth does not give the creature an ability, it just gives it the keyword version.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:11 am 
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sixty4half wrote:
Banedon wrote:
I attack with Hazoret the Fervent and my opponent blocks with Torrential Gearhulk. After combat I cast Humility. Do both Hazoret & Gearhulk die (as 1/1's that have taken 5 damage)? Gatherer doesn't say anything about damage wearing off when a creature is transformed, so I assume yes?


Barney is right on this one. Gearhulk dies but Hazoret doesn't. Indestructible isn't an ability.

However; the phrase "N is Indestructible" where N is the name of a card is an ability, and is removed by things like Humility. See Darksteel Colossus and Spearbreaker Behemoth.

But even then, Spearbreaker Behemoth carries another exception, when you use Behemoth's ability to give another creature indestructible it is simply indestructible. That indestructibility cannot be stripped from it via Humility since behemoth does not give the creature an ability, it just gives it the keyword version.


Nope, I was right:
"From the Comprehensive Rules (Rivals of Ixalan (January 19, 2018))

702. Keyword Abilities
702.1. Most abilities describe exactly what they do in the card’s rules text. Some, though, are very common or would require too much space to define on the card. In these cases, the object lists only the name of the ability as a “keyword”; sometimes reminder text summarizes the game rule.
702.2. Deathtouch
702.3. Defender
702.4. Double Strike
702.5. Enchant
702.6. Equip
702.7. First Strike
702.8. Flash
702.9. Flying
702.10. Haste
702.11. Hexproof
702.12. Indestructible
(...)"
Keyword ability, so it does go bye bye...

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:29 am 
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Welp... that’s what this thread is for! Educating dummies like me!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:03 pm 
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Haven_pt wrote:
sixty4half wrote:
Banedon wrote:
I attack with Hazoret the Fervent and my opponent blocks with Torrential Gearhulk. After combat I cast Humility. Do both Hazoret & Gearhulk die (as 1/1's that have taken 5 damage)? Gatherer doesn't say anything about damage wearing off when a creature is transformed, so I assume yes?


Barney is right on this one. Gearhulk dies but Hazoret doesn't. Indestructible isn't an ability.

However; the phrase "N is Indestructible" where N is the name of a card is an ability, and is removed by things like Humility. See Darksteel Colossus and Spearbreaker Behemoth.

But even then, Spearbreaker Behemoth carries another exception, when you use Behemoth's ability to give another creature indestructible it is simply indestructible. That indestructibility cannot be stripped from it via Humility since behemoth does not give the creature an ability, it just gives it the keyword version.


Nope, I was right:
"From the Comprehensive Rules (Rivals of Ixalan (January 19, 2018))

702. Keyword Abilities
702.1. Most abilities describe exactly what they do in the card’s rules text. Some, though, are very common or would require too much space to define on the card. In these cases, the object lists only the name of the ability as a “keyword”; sometimes reminder text summarizes the game rule.
702.2. Deathtouch
702.3. Defender
702.4. Double Strike
702.5. Enchant
702.6. Equip
702.7. First Strike
702.8. Flash
702.9. Flying
702.10. Haste
702.11. Hexproof
702.12. Indestructible
(...)"
Keyword ability, so it does go bye bye...



WTF?!? They changed it BACK (to a Keyword) in January? They must have gotten tired of all the rules questions due to it not being an ability, but also being on certain abilities (ie what I mentioned regarding Colossus and Behemoth) and just did away with all the confusion. That's for the better anyways.


Also, in case anyone was wondering, there are 129 Keyword Abilities now. Yeah, I'm such a nerd I had to find out.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:09 pm 
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And that's why you should be testing Arena with us!


The fact that I still have Aether Revolt and 2 packs of Zendikar to unlock tells me I don't play enough to be of any value.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:43 pm 
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sixty4half wrote:
And that's why you should be testing Arena with us!


The fact that I still have Aether Revolt and 2 packs of Zendikar to unlock tells me I don't play enough to be of any value.

Touche'
Well, at least give it a shot when it comes to open beta. Be nice to play against, or if they have 2hg soon with, you again.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Wow, Magic is complicated :confused::doh:


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:28 pm 
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Back in the day when there was instants and interrupts , at different speeds, and Wizards was changing the stack rules every three months. All my friends and i would do is get into fights about Magic îles.

Im glad it’s so much simpler now

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:17 pm 
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Back in the day when there was instants and interrupts , at different speeds, and Wizards was changing the stack rules every three months. All my friends and i would do is get into fights about Magic îles.

Im glad it’s so much simpler now

:takei:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:21 pm 
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You can interrupt an instant, and you can interrupt an interrupt, but you can't instant an interrupt.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:42 am 
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I attack with Stoneforge Mystic and my opponent blocks with Baleful Strix. I have an active Mother of Runes and give my Mystic protection from blue before damage. Does the Strix die and my Mystic stay alive?

It seems obvious the answer is "yes" since protection prevents damage, but I'm watching Andrea Mengucci play D&T and he passes on making this play without thinking (link about 1 hour and 4 minutes in). Possibly he wanted to keep the Mother active, but I still find it weird especially since he didn't discuss it at all.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:25 am 
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I think he just chose not to do it, IIRC Mother of Runes is generally used for protection of your guys, so getting in one point of damage is not worth the risk of them being able to kill mother or a better creature, and with a second stoneforge one was expendable

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:15 pm 
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Back in the day when there was instants and interrupts , at different speeds, and Wizards was changing the stack rules every three months. All my friends and i would do is get into fights about Magic îles.

Im glad it’s so much simpler now

Like any good Blue mage, I miss Interrupts. :(

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:04 pm 
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divinevert wrote:
Back in the day when there was instants and interrupts , at different speeds, and Wizards was changing the stack rules every three months. All my friends and i would do is get into fights about Magic îles.

Im glad it’s so much simpler now

Like any good Blue mage, I miss Interrupts. :(


What's up guys? Anybody got some good deck designs? Been out of it for a couple years now.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:58 pm 
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Banedon wrote:
I attack with Stoneforge Mystic and my opponent blocks with Baleful Strix. I have an active Mother of Runes and give my Mystic protection from blue before damage. Does the Strix die and my Mystic stay alive?

It seems obvious the answer is "yes" since protection prevents damage, but I'm watching Andrea Mengucci play D&T and he passes on making this play without thinking (link about 1 hour and 4 minutes in). Possibly he wanted to keep the Mother active, but I still find it weird especially since he didn't discuss it at all.

To answer the mechanics question, yes, that is what would happen. As to why not to make that play, it is to protect the Mother of Runes. After the attack, your opponent will untap and have everything at his disposal. If MoR is already tapped, she cannot protect anything, including herself. Basically, your opponent can't use removal until he has 2 (1 being instant) in hand, and enough mana to cast both. But if you tap her during your own turn you are giving her up to removal on the next turn.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:10 pm 
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Watching the video I can offer more insight.

He's got 3 Stoneforge Mystics in play. Losing 1 of them is like losing a soldier token at that point in the game.

However; he's got a Jitte and a Sword of X and Y in his hand. His end game goal is to equip that sword to anything other than Mother of Runes. Equip is sorcery speed and leaves your creature vulnerable to removal so the MoR is there to protect that creature for that 1 moment. Once Sword gets equiped it's got Protection of it's own, but until then, it needs MoR.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:22 pm 
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A few minutes later though when he's trying to pressure the Jace, he also passes on using Mother of Runes to save his Pia and Kiran Nalaar. Maybe he could afford to have lost a Mystic earlier since after all he had three, but Pia and Kiran Nalaar ought to be worth saving. As they say, don't lose to something the opponent does not have, and he proceeded to lose the game with MoR never tapped. I still find it very weird. Anyway as a mechanics question, that's resolved.

Here's another paper magic question. Suppose Alice is playing vs. Bob. Alice has a Tarmogoyf in play. Bob wonders how large the Tarmogoyf is, and they look through the graveyards and conclude it's a 5/6. A few turns later Alice attacks, Bob blocks, Alice casts Temur Battle Rage and presents lethal. Bob checks and checks to see how he can avoid lethal and then notices that Goyf is actually a 4/5. In that case Alice's attack is actively bad: Bob survives and the counterattack wins the game. Alice wants to take the attack back. Can she?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:15 am 
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It depends on the Rules Enforcement Level (REL) of the event that you are playing in. There are Regular, Competitive and Professional RELs. In Regular you'd probably get a warning first. After that it's a no-go. In Competitive/Pro REL, it's a no-go right off the bat. Once you make a move in Competitive REL, you don't get to take it back. That's like moving a piece or a pawn in chess and taking your finger off it.

If the game is a home game here's my personal take; It's Alice's Goyf. Alice needs to take responsibility for knowing what her Goyf is, at some point.

If this is the first time, sure take your attack back. Next game and it happens again, "okay, but this is the last time." Next week when she pulls out the same deck and makes a Goyf mistake again, "I'm sorry Alice. You made the decision to play with that card and you need to start taking the responsibility to play it properly." The Goyf dies and hopefully that'll send the message that you don't play with cards that you're not willing to put the time into to play properly. Different people require different levels of patience and understanding. Is Alice a newbie? Has she played since 4th Ed.? What's Alice's personality? Mentality?

I'm pretty sure that's the approach that most judges at regular RELs will take as well. Something like a FNM, you'll get the one chance to take back an attack, if you're new to the store. If you're considered a veteran around that particular store you might find the judge less inclined to allow that. If it's the Semi or Final you're definitely not allowed to take it back.

The bigger question Bob should have is; Could I have killed the Goyf if I had known it was a 4/5 in the first place? I don't condone going back past 1 phase, so you don't retroactively kill the goyf and bob throws a spell in the GY. But Alice might offer Bob a concession of +1 life if he's facing lethal damage (we're talking about friends? right?).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:22 am 
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great post Sixty, super helpful and informative.

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